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Now you have been very thorough in criticizing me for making the statement that the P-47 was more survivable than the Corsair. I said, It is based on the presumption that the Thunderbolt was at least as survivable as the Hellcat. Remember that statistically speaking, Corsair drivers were more than 50% more likely not to bring their planes back after taking AA hits and that this was apparently due to the more vulnerable oil cooling arrangement of the Corsair. The Hellcat and the P-47 share the same oil cooler setup. I am aware of no studies but first person accounts of Thunderbolts continuing to fly with horrific damage abound in relation to such accounts involving Hellcats. I am quite comfortable in this presumption.
I stand by all my previous comments that you have no statistical or anecdotal evidence that the Thunderbolt took more battle damage than the F6F, and by extrapolation the F4U. You continue to make a 'logical' assumption with no logic.
In addition, I asked for your opinion as to whether the F4U was more or less survivable than the P-47 and you responded, "My OPINION, as I have stated it before - as contrasted with OPINIONS to the contrary, is the the F4U was just as 'survivable'." Can you provide the statistical basis for this opinion? Is it just a presumption? On what is it based? Did you flip a coin and it ended up standing on edge? What basis of comparison do you have between the Corsair and P-47 for survivabilty...?? because of different threat environment, terrain, mission distances, etc...how do you compare?
Yes I stated that opinion, and continue to a.) state it as an opinion, and b.) you can't prove otherwise., and c.) because you Assert and I merely express an opinion - where is burden of proof?
Lastly, you stated, "All of the 355FG P-47 awards were diving chasing attacks with very little turning."
In order to prevail on this claim, you will need to show (1) All of the attacks were diving chasing and (2) All of the attacks had very little turning. As such, even one such deviation from the aforementioned prongs will cause your claim to fail.
I didn't say 'ATTACKs" - Read it again. I said AWARDS. That means for you also, a Kill. Proceed on.
So, for instance,if I produced:
1st Lieutenant Vernon A. Burroughs, February 11, 1944:
I spotted an Me-109 flying behind us and at our altitude on our right. I was flying on the right and changed to the left to be in position for firing. I notified Major Szaniawski of the E/A and its position; he made a 30 degree turn to the right, then the E/A identified us and made a left diving turn, leaving Major Szaniawski a 45 degree deflection shot in the steep bank. I observed hits on the wings and fuselage and as the E/A passed under me, I did a vertical barrel roll and fired a long burst at 100 yard, closing to 25 yards and saw hits on the empennage. The E/A was smoking badly and was on fire.
I have the film on this one and there is a.) no Lufberry in which Burroughs is chasing the 109 in a turn - if you re-read the encounter you will note that he rolled up and over to get on the tail of the 109 and shot him down for the 6 O'clock shot - is this one you want to bet on?
Or, say I produced:
1st Lieutenant Jack J. Woertz,November 29, 1944:
We pulled back up to rejoin the bombers at 26,000ft when I spotted eight plus Me-109's. They were coming from SE.,4,000ft above us (flying at 30,000ft) and heading for the bombers at 2 o'clock. They passed over us and I believe were getting set to attack the big friends, when four P-47's of another group appeared in front of them. The E/A's jumped the P-47's. We were climbing all the time, and made two Lufberrys. I closed on the last E/A. He started to roll down, I followed, closed to about 600 yards and gave him a short squirt. I saw no strikes. I again opened fire at 350 yards, then closed to 200, where I gave him about a two second burst. I saw strikes on his canopy, left wing root, and fuselage. Hecht and Peery were with me in the Lufberry and all during the engagement.
Note Jank that nobody got the shot in a lufberry, note that the 109 dove with aileron rolls (a standard manuever for them) and Woertz caught him from his six and shot him down - I may have this one also.
One last note drgndog. I don't appreciate the tough guy behind the anonymous posting from the safety of my computer bullshit. You would never take this tone to my face. Trust me.
"You never can tell" is the way the song goes Jank - guys will do amazing things when they are pissed. I will take the 'tough guy' off line with you and apologise on line for letting you make me that angry.
Offline I will give you my address and you can come by for a cup if you wish to discuss this personally
If you want to keep this discussion going, lets have some fun. I am going to ask you, again, to respond to my queries.
"Yes I stated that opinion, and continue to a.) state it as an opinion, and b.) you can't prove otherwise., and c.) because you Assert and I merely express an opinion - where is burden of proof?"
You did in fact say, "My OPINION, as I have stated it before - as contrasted with OPINIONS to the contrary, is the the F4U was just as 'survivable'."
That certainly looks like an opinion to me.
Good - you actually passed that test in reading comprehension
You also said, that the Corsair "would have done far better air to ground" than the Thunderbolt.
OOPs - You failed this one.
Jank - you consistently change the wording of what I write to suit your argument
Here is SPECIFICALLY what I wrote in my first post on this subject. Rather than re-write it as you like to do I used the simple "copy' and 'paste' to reproduce it as I wrote it.. now close your eyes for a minute
"My love is the Mustang for all around but my head is on the Corsair.
In ETO, the only group that did exceptionally well air to air against the Luftwaffe throughout the campaigns in P-47s was the 56th (in context of air to air ratios achieved by Mustangs). The 51s had far better success against the Luftwaffe but I believe the Corsair would have done as well and far better air to ground."
Now a simple question for you - and I'll do it SLOOOOOOOOOWLY
1. Was the 'opinion of how the Corsair would do "as well and far better air to ground" connected to a comparison against the 51s or P-47s? Take your time. This is complicate english comprehension.
If you finally decide the comparison was F4U versus 51, do you accept my uninformed opinion that a.) it (Corsair) probably would have done as well air to air and far better air to ground (vs 51)"?
If not, why not and as you say back it up.
On this forum, people issue opinions all the time and are queried on them. Is there some reason why you are uncomfortable sharing your considerable knowledge? That is rhetorical as we both know that you don't want to get sucked into looking like a hippocrite when it turns out that you are insisting that I conform with statistical data and provable facts while you get a pass.
As the Hypocrite (me) relative to statistical proof - you of course stay out of that zone by having which set of statistics?? to support your OPINION that the Jug was a.) as survivable as F6F, and b.) more survivable than the F4U?
I'm searchin' for confirmation, here Janky but not seein much from your lofty 'statistical' high ground? Maybe I Missed it - again and again and again when I asked you for backing to your assumption?
You said, "I would have picked the F4U over the P-47 (and P-51) simply because the a/c was as good or better than both in about 75% of the air to air criteria up to 25,000 feet (where ETO was fought) and superior on the deck - "
So again, I ask you what statistical basis do you have that the Corsair 'would have done far better air to ground' than the Thunderbolt. In order to prevail on this point, you will need to provide evidence not just that it would have done just better but far better.
I never said 'far better' - I said "as well as".. go find the quote - use 'copy' then use paste' and we will try this one again.
If by some chance I actually wrote 'far better' in context of Corsair to P-47air to ground capability - instead of the comparison above that you frequntly mis-quote, I will acknowledge my error
As to "as good as in air to ground", What evidence do you have to contradict it (my opinion)? My Opinion is that the Corsair would carry a load (combination of rockets and bombs and fuel) farther than a Jug and be better defensively against any of the primary adversaries on the deck.
1. Corsair better air to air on deck in defense
2. Corsair carry heavier load in combat
3. Disputed on survivability to flak but Corsair should unquestionably be more survivable than Mustang? Still need to prove that Jug better here.
Now back to the reading comprehension thingy again. In my statement I said
"plus as good air to ground as P-47 with added advantage of being a better defensive fighter on the deck."
But you just said I said "far better".. wrong again.. you keep disconnecting brain to my comparison of Corsair to Mustang (again and again)
Still waiting.
Continue waiting, suck a thumb, tap a foot - whatever.
Again, you stated, "All of the 355FG P-47 awards were diving chasing attacks with very little turning."
I DID say that. I also said that the awards in subsequent statements, were never for out turning the adversary in a lufberry type turn.
I never said that I accepted your "proposal" based on your redrafted conditions. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? It is a fact, a provable fact, that you stated the foregoing.
I provided two examples of P-47 awards (kills) from the 355th. Did you read them?
I read them and commented on them. If you read my post and comprehended what you read, you would have noted that and not asked another dumb question
Well, would it make you feel better if I "clarified" that my assertion that the P-47D "could have" carried a 4,000lb ordinance load was an opinion that I believe based on the evidence / presumptions / examples I provided?
Here is precisely what you said{/B]
Republic Aviation's own design specs for the P-47M, which had the exact same wing and fuselage structure with respect to load bearing, indicate a maximum bomb load of 4,200lbs The P-47N, which did often carry 3,900lbs of bombs and rockets actually had a maximum design bomb load that was somewhat less at 3,700lbs. I have never come across Republic Aviation's design specs for the P-47D but there is no reason to assume that they would be any different than those for the P-47M.
So, re-clarify. I challenged that because I have never seen a photo, a document, a first hand account of such and asked you to substantiate it.
A design spec for individual load bearing points is not a manufacturer's assertion or recommendation to use all such weights on all such racks - under any basis unless so stated in the operating manual. Period. To do so frequently, if not always, results in a burning pile of junk at the end of the runway.
The manufacturer will specificically state what the load conditions should be for safety as well as the flight profile or cautions when loaded to Gross Max TO.
Despite your knowledge of the P-47, you do not seem to be able to conjure up a document which recommends or even states a wing/fuse store configuration which lives up to your assertions, or assumptions or wild ass speculations - and your 'feelers' are hurt when I repeadtedly ask for for the proof. Hey - I am willing to acknowledge that you could be right - but nothing you produce lives up to your statements.
Three websites that I provided for you all have the bomb load capability of 2,500 pounds (all stores) and you keep asserting otherwise. This is an an example of repeated published stats - as contrasted with your assumptions.
So what do you wish to add?
I will be holding you to the same rigorous standards that you have held me to my friend.
Three other reasons why the hypothetical "one fighter" perhaps should be the Corsair are: Cost-The Corsair cost was about $75,000 each. I believe the P47 was more than that, the P38 was a lot more and the P51 might have been slightly lower. Air to ground-The Corsair had a form of dive brakes which may have given it an edge in dive bombing. Short field- The Corsair had much better short field take off and landing capabilities than any of the AAF fighters which would have allowed it to use forward landing fields in a fluid battle environment.
I think we are all missing the point a little. Yes, load carrying ability is important but you need the air superiority first. In a fighter this best achiveved by speed, manoevourabilty and firepower. Therefore, I think the Corsair fills most of these requirements on average better then any other american fighter.
P-38
1939-41 - $134,284
1942 - $120,407
1943 - $105,567
1944 - $97,147
from #82 USAAFSD
Comparison to theP-38
1939-41 - $134,284
1942 - $120,407
1943 - $105,567
1944 - $97,147
from #82 USAAFSD
"
The tough guy, not afraid to die, here's my address, let's dance posting from the safety of my computer crap makes you look look an ass. I'm guessing your wife lives in fear of you. Maybe your dogs too.
Anyway, this is going nowhere and I am tired of the dance.
You win.
Comparison to the
P-47
1939-41 - $113,246
1942 - $105,594
1943 - $104,258
1944 - $85,578
1945 - $83,001
P-63
1942 - $60,277
1943 - $57,379
1944 - $59,966
1945 - $65,914
Why the increase in the 1945 price for the P-63?
"In ETO, the only group that did exceptionally well air to air against the Luftwaffe throughout the campaigns in P-47s was the 56th (in context of air to air ratios achieved by Mustangs). The 51s had far better success against the Luftwaffe but I believe the Corsair would have done as well and far better air to ground."
So again (this is actually the fifth time I have asked this question), I ask you what statistical basis do you have that the Corsair 'would have done far better air to ground' than the Thunderbolt.
You keep misquoting and you keep leaving outh the first line
[B]"My love is the Mustang for all around but my head is on the Corsair.
In ETO, the only group that did exceptionally well air to air against the Luftwaffe throughout the campaigns in P-47s was the 56th (in context of air to air ratios achieved by Mustangs). The 51s had far better success against the Luftwaffe but I believe the Corsair would have done as well and far better air to ground."[/B]
The 'subject of my thesis - my comments and my statement above -is comparing the Mustang to the Corsair.
You keep skipping the first line above for whatever reason.
After explaining that MY choice emotionally was the Mustang I went on to say the Corsair was objectively the right choice. You with me so far?
I introduced the Corsair by a.) stating that the 51 was better than the 47 against the Luftwaffe - by demonstrating that if the Corsair was equal or better than the 51 it would have to do as well as a 51 (which I believe it would and so stated) air to air, and be better than a 51 air to ground (and I stated far better).
I didn't consider the P-47 worth mentioning in the statement other than it was inferior to the Mustang air to air. There is zero question in my mind that the Corsair would have been much (superior, excel, etc) better than the P-47 air to air - never crossing my mind that it would merely 'equal' a P-47 in that domain.
Still with me? You don't get to parse my words and eliminate context without being intellectually dishonest
Do you have any statistical data for Corsairs and Thunderbolts flying similar air to ground missions against similar targets? Are there similar threats from the ground? What about similar threats from the air? Does that matter? Why. Does gun armament make a difference? Are there range considerations? How does survivability enter into the consideration? Bomb load / ordinance load? Which is a more stable firing platform?
Simple answer - No. And neither do you.
You are amazing - I asked you the same questions (first) when you referenced the F6F -one theatre comparison of battle damage survivability - against the F4U.. then asked you how you were going to compare against either for the P-47.. and never got an answer while you pounded on me to explain my OPINION that the F4U would probably be 'as survivable' - BTW if you can drag out the number of P-47s shot down by flak we could start working on this - but nobody seems to have the answer for the entire war.
I have a start for 8th FC but have to start breaking out the 'mixed' groups that flew 47s and transitioned to 51's. A better start would be if someone really has good data on the 9th AF than the 8th
"Three websites that I provided for you all have the bomb load capability of 2,500 pounds (all stores) and you keep asserting otherwise. This is an an example of repeated published stats - as contrasted with your assumptions."
Wikipedia, Warbird Alley and Republic P-47Thunderbolt? Published stats that you are relying on?
Here's another one with a pilot who has flown both the 51 and 47 late model D.. he specifically states that the max bomb load was one 1,000 pounder on each wing rack and one 500 pounder on Cl - and required water injection to take off...
P-47 THUNDERBOLT quoting Rip Collins former USAAF pilot who flew combat in both types.
"6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself."
I will go with the published stats put out by Republic Aviation before I place faith in those rags. Tell me. Are you sourcing Wikipedia for your book?
No, actually I sourced 3,000 pages of microfilm plus cross referenced perhaps 30 other baseline references. So far you have produced zero backing to your claim despite denigrating my own research. The above reference is link #4. You are still at link zero and no photos - I have zero problem for you knocking any or all of these, but you have yet to establish yourself as an authority and continue to argue on emotion
You have presented Republic' manufacturer specs for each pylon and Centerline. You have yet to publish a 'source' of any kind that states the load max exceeds 2500 pounds of total stores, including a mix of bombs and rockets. You are wrong. period.
You do know that B-17s had approximately 8,000 pound internal bomb load and two 4,000 pound bomb/missle Do you suppose any missions were flown using maximum carrying capacity of each and every load point internally and externally?
The answer is no, unless you can find a reference external to manufacturer's spec for each load point - do you not? Do you suppose any B-17 took off with more than the max load externally, or took off with max external and anything internal?
Now here is a question for you? Is the following an illustration that the P-47 was hard to fly, was overloaded with fuel to try for max range, or what?
The 56th FG had the highest number and the highest rate of fatal accidents in the 8th AF FC - (27 in 462 missions) is that because the P-47 was faulty? If you wish to argue long service the 78th (17 in 450) and 4th (18 in 576 missions) or 353rd (15 in 447 missions). The 357th (all Mustangs) had 13 in 318 missions and 339th (10 in 264 missions) - lower rates by significant margin.. so Jugs out pointed 51's in burning hulks by accident - but as rugged as a Jug is - should that happen? These aren't 9th AF Jugs loaded for ground support.
So if 47 lost more to accidents, lost more proportionately to LW fighters but lost fewer to flak - what does that say to 'survivability - against the Mustang - statistically speaking of course.
You win.