Operation Rolling Thunder

[tyrodtom]

Rolling Thunder was conducted by the USAF and the Navy. The USAF dropped the most of the tonnage.
Most of the USAF aircraft conducting the Rolling Thunder raid were flying out of bases in Thailand, Ubon ' Takli, NKP, etc.
All these bases were located in the interior of Thailand, and mostly supplied by truck convoys over very primitive roads.

Until they opened up the Port at Sattahip, and built the B-52 base nearby, any heavy bombers had to fly from Okinawa.

We may have had the aircraft to perform the mission, but not where we needed them.

But one thing we did not have, IMO, was the ability to supply those aircraft with the munitions to perform that mission, and then it seemed we didn't know where to drop them ..

I can remember working many 12 hour, and longer days, seven days a week. Just unloading and storing bombs, then then trailering them out to the flightline.

About 3 times the tonnage dropped in WW2, dropped on a country about the size of California.
Somebody did something wrong, but you can't blame it all on LBJ.

It's just impossible to explain to someone who wasn't there.

 

[swampyankee]

Putting it bluntly, they were VERY dumb.

There was more than enough dumb to go around. If you're going to blame the civilian leaders, you also have to include a few in uniform, or recently out, like Maxwell Taylor.

A question everyone should have been asking, but weren't, is "what is the root cause for this war that's been fought for decades?" Communism wasn't all of it.

 

[tyrodtom]

I wonder what your thought process is on incinerating Hanoi ?

Do you think it's going to kill Ho Chi Minh , or any of the leadership ?
They're very likely going to be in deep bunkers, shelters, or elsewhere.
No doubt it would kill a lot of civilians, is that your take on a sound tactic.

Vietnam wasn't Japan, or Germany, they had very little production capacity.
They used a lot of trucks and bicycles to transport supplies south.
They made no trucks, they didn't even make the bicycles.
They got the trucks from China, and Russia, the bicycles were made in China and modified in Vietnam for their unique use.

They made almost none of the own munitions, as far as I know they didn't refine their own oil.
They had a electric grid around most of their major cities, but if you knock it out, you're going to just inconvenience them.

Incinerating Haiphong might have been effective,a lot of supplies were entering N. Vietnam through that port.
But that would mean killing a lot of Russians, Chinese, plus other foreign nationals still trading with Vietnam.

 

[swampyankee]

A question that's not being asked is was the cost in treasure, life, and national reputation worth incinerating Hanoi. France, even with US aid, didn't think Vietnam worth keeping.

Was Vietnam worth America fighting for?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There was more than enough dumb to go around. If you're going to blame the civilian leaders, you also have to include a few in uniform, or recently out, like Maxwell Taylor.

A question everyone should have been asking, but weren't, is "what is the root cause for this war that's been fought for decades?" Communism wasn't all of it.

Absolutely. But folks like him were far removed from those who had to do "the dirty work," and there were many left overs from WW2 (both civilian and military) who were clueless.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Was Vietnam worth America fighting for?

The question that split America right down the middle (a condition that still exists today) largely along generational and political lines. The question that started the decay of civil discourse resulting in the hostile armed camps that define our social and political landscape today.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

A question that's not being asked is was the cost in treasure, life, and national reputation worth incinerating Hanoi. France, even with US aid, didn't think Vietnam worth keeping.

If the final bill as of 1975 had been presented to Mr John ("Quemoy, Matsu, and the Pescadores Islands are not worth the bones of one American soldier!") F Kennedy as a choice in 1962 when the first steps down the slippery slope were taken, do you think we'd be asking these questions today? If JFK hadn't stepped on a land mine called Bay of Pigs, and if Oswald's Carcano had been a little less accurate, we'd have had a president who came of age in combat and understood the conduct and cost of war, instead of a back room wheeler dealer political animal with delusions of grandeur.
The idealism and dedication of the Viet Minh outlasted the attachment of the French ("Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite!") people to the prestige and economic benefits of hanging on to their colonial empire. This set the pace for liberation movements throughout the empire. If they could outlast their former colonial masters, with all the investment they had made in Indochina, the Vietnamese could certainly outlast the US, who didn't even have a horse in the race. And as we all know, they did. Shades of Yorktown and "The World Turned Upside Down".
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mikewint]

Rolling Thunder was simply put a microcosm of all the problems the US faced in Vietnam. There are SO many factors at work that it is difficult to cover all of them. IMHO -
1. In the simplest terms I can think of the dichotomy of Vietnam was that the US was attempting to wage a conventional war against an unconventional enemy and trying to wage a limited war against an enemy waging an essentially unlimited war.
2. The specter of another Korea haunted both political and military leaders. The possibility of the military going too far and a million Chinese boiling over the border in support of Hanoi haunted every decision that was made. Westmoreland himself referred to an "almost paranoid fear of a nuclear confrontation with the Soviet Union"
3. American Air power doctrine was based on a WWII concept of strategic bombardment - Destroy the enemies ability to wage MODERN warfare and that the enemy bombed would be an industrialized one. Vietnam was none of these and the US goal became one of trying to persuade the North to stop supporting the war in the south.
4. Rolling Thunder was a very small part of a war that had an almost unimaginable scope. The Air war ranged over S Vietnam, N Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The political part of the war involved Hanoi, Saigon, Washington, Peking, and Moscow. The political wrangling literally defies description. Then there was the war in the field which ranged from large unit conventional mechanized actions to small unit guerrilla battles all over which were overlaid by efforts to pacify and control a suspicious and reluctant peasantry who had little in common with US troops or the Saigon elites.
5. Washington considered Vietnam to be a Communist plot to alter the balance of power in the world. Vietnam was a Communist plot to seize the South rather than a North Vietnamese one. So in short Vietnam was not a civil war fueled by nationalism for control of a country that the major powers had summarily divided into two parts but just a part of a battle for world power.
6. Politically we were pretty clear. LBJ stated in 1965 "Our objective is the independence of South Viet-Nam and its freedom from attack" On the other hand the militarizes role in in obtaining that goal was very unclear. Existing document state clearly that the military goal was NOT to win (in the WWII sense) the war but to convince the enemy that he could not win.
9. By 1964 the war and deteriorated drastically. There was no effective government in Saigon as various generals struggled to seize power and coup followed coup. Intelligence estimated that 40% of the South was under the control of the North. ARVN forces were failing in the field and desertions topped 5,000 a month. The North was equipping the VC with standard infantry weapons and artillery and the first regular NVA troops were appearing in the South
10. The American response to the crisis was 1965s Rolling Thunder air campaign. Commanders on the scene in Vietnam submitted their targeting recommendations to Admiral Grant Sharp, the commander in chief, Pacific, at Honolulu. Admiral Sharp's staff evaluated the recommendations and assembled them into a coordinated program, and then forwarded the program to the Pentagon. In the Pentagon, the strategic significance of each target was evaluated by military experts, and the State Department was asked to assess the international political implications of striking each target. After this process was completed, what remained of the target recommendations were forwarded to the White House where LBJ and his staff made the final decisions. The White House dictated the size of the striking force, its weapons, and the precise time of the attack.
11. North Vietnam had almost nothing in the way of industry. What few strategic targets that did exist were usually "off-limits" to bombing. American bombing missions were not allowed within a 30-nautical mile radius of Hanoi, within a 10-nautical mile radius of Haiphong, or within a wide buffer zone along the Chinese border.
12. American flight crew training had focused on the delivery of nuclear weapons not of precision bombing of small targets. Flaming Dart I and II were directed against 491 structures. BDA showed 47 destroyed and 22 damaged. The average circular error probable was 750 feet. Such a large error made hitting small buildings and bridges with conventional explosives almost impossible

 

[XBe02Drvr]

the military goal was NOT to win (in the WWII sense) the war but to convince the enemy that he could not win.

A goal that could only (maybe) be achieved with a unified, honest, dedicated, patriotic RVN, with at least as much determination to remain independent as the northerners had to reunify, and the unfailing logistical support of the "free" world. Now given the actual South Vietnam that existed, how likely does that seem? The view from Khe Sanh and from Washington were from different galaxies.

 

[Dimlee]

A goal that could only (maybe) be achieved with a unified, honest, dedicated, patriotic RVN, with at least as much determination to remain independent as the northerners had to reunify, and the unfailing logistical support of the "free" world. Now given the actual South Vietnam that existed, how likely does that seem? The view from Khe Sanh and from Washington were from different galaxies.

Probably it was likely but long term and only subject some critical factors, for example:
1. Success of the "Vietnamizatioin".
2. No Case-Church Amendment or any similar restriction.
3. Significant reduction of corruption in all spheres of power of Republic of Vietnam, military and civilian.
But ##1 and 3 required much longer time than was given by real history.

mikewint -
thanks for excellent overview.

 

[mikewint]

A goal that could only (maybe) be achieved with a unified, honest, dedicated, patriotic RVN

In 1965, Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara defined the American military objective by asking Westmoreland "how many additional American and Allied troops would be required to convince the enemy he would be unable to win.
Westmoreland, A Soldier Reports, 183.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

But ##1 and 3 required much longer time than was given by real history.

Actually, much longer time than was given by the attention span of American support.

 

[tyrodtom]

I saw Rolling Thunder from the unromantic side.
The part that if it even gets mentioned in a book will say there were supply problems, or supply shortages, usually they never get into it deeper than that.

In Thailand, at NKP when Sattahip got improved and the B-52 airbase nearby got really going they caused a shortage for every other airbase in the area.

Strangely it wasn't 750 lbs bombs we ran out of but the fins for them that held us back.
The fins were made by different contractors than the bomb bodies, shipped separately.
The 750 lbs bomb had a rebated rim at it's base, the fins were secured to this rim with allen bolts.

If the fin was bent, or too many allen bolt hole threads were stripped the fin was grade 3 and not used.
Bent fins or loose fins degraded bomb accuracy.

About everywhere you'd go in the USAF, you'd see orange 750 bomb fins outside the entrance to every chow hall, squadron HQ. orderly room, etc., full of sand, big butt cans.

It was a big sin in the USAF or Army to throw your cigarette butts on the ground, you threw them in the butts cans, or else.
In 1967 at NKP, and probably worldwide, we were reexamining all these orange butt cans and seeing if the fins might be straightened or the allen treads rethreaded so the fins could be used. We painted them OD, and used them.
Probably a lot of not so accurate bomb drops because of that episode.

I can remember a almost 40 hour period of work while we were supporting the Khe Sanh seige.
Unloading constant 50 and 100 truck convoys of munitions to be used in the Khe Sanh area.

From my perspective as a low ranking USAF enlisted man, IMO, Rolling Thunder probably could not have continued full force, it needed the on and off effort to allow the munition makers and the supply system the chance to catch up

 

[swampyankee]

Actually, much longer time than was given by the attention span of American support.

Given the lack of ability for the politicians to try to convince the US populace that it was worthwhile, and the military to convince the populace that it was winnable without behaving at least as badly as nazi Germany or the USSR, it wasn't so much "attention span" as antipathy. The US had done similar wars in the past, especially in Central America and Haiti, but they tended to be fought by small numbers of volunteers, not large numbers of conscripts. The perceived and real unfairnesses of the Selective Service System and its local boards certainly didn't help.

 

[mikewint]

real unfairnesses of the Selective Service System and its local boards certainly didn't help.

Local boards were autonomous and essentially accountable to no one. Appeals went before the same men who made the initial decision to begin with so an appeal was for all intents and purposes no appeal.
The University of Illinois is/was a Land Grant University and as such, at the time, required all Freshmen and Sophomore students to enroll in ROTC. Those who had had ROTC in High School became Corporals & Sargents over the rest of us clowns. Resistance was futile since you had to pass ROTC to graduate. A resistance group formed, naturally, the SPU or Student Peace Union. They'd come out and picket while we Hup-two-threed up and down the Quad. It was all pretty peaceful and most of us agreed with them in any case. I went to a number of their meetings and met one of the most charismatic people I've ever known, Tom Hayden. He was visiting campuses across the country trying to organize the various SPUs into what became SDS, Student for a Democratic Society. I soon became a member and joined the picketers. After a time names were taken and the University reported our subversive picketing to local Draft Boards. In my Sophomore year my 2-S deferral was revoked despite scoring in the 99th percentile on Student Deferral exam. I appealed twice, got no where, and by the next June was on my merry way to beautiful downtown Vietnam to fight and die for liberty

 

[tyrodtom]

I went completely of my own free will.
Earlier generations of my family had fought in every war back through the Civil War.
I didn't question it, I enlisted, twice.

But while in the USAF, I met several guys who had enlisted in the air force, to escape the draft.
Even though in that era, enlisting in the USAF was a minimum 4 years, verses the draft for 2 years.
But many considered the draft as a almost automatic term in the infantry, and some thought of that as a semi death sentence.

Then in both services I met several troops who had committed some minor crime in civilian life and was given a choice by the judge, jail time or FTA. ( that's Fun, Travel, Adventure, what the Army recruitment posters guaranteed )
Of course the troops had another version of what FTA stood for.

 

[swampyankee]

The accepted wisdom I had heard at the time was that if you enlisted in the Army, you would not go to Vietnam unless you volunteered. If you drafted, you would go.

The other accepted wisdom was that you couldn't get into the National Guard without a lot of pull.

 

[tyrodtom]

The accepted wisdom I had heard at the time was that if you enlisted in the Army, you would not go to Vietnam unless you volunteered. If you drafted, you would go.

The other accepted wisdom was that you couldn't get into the National Guard without a lot of pull.

The minimum enlistment period in the Army was 3 years.
That means the Army had more time to train you, so chances are you get some kind of technical training.
But pretty much all Army technical training is related to their combat mission in some way.
They needed truck drivers, mechanics, heavy equipment operators, etc. worldwide. But they were needed the most in Vietnam, or nearby.
I'm not sure they were all volunteers.

The Army in the USA, or Europe was noted for CS, a lot of attention to hair cut's, shiny boots, super clean barracks, a lot of GI parties
They put more emphasis on the appearance of a high morale "Espirit de Corps" than on what the morale actually was.
I know some guys that volunteered for Vietnam just to leave the chicken shit behind.

 

[Zipper730]

I saw Rolling Thunder from the unromantic side.
The part that if it even gets mentioned in a book will say there were supply problems, or supply shortages, usually they never get into it deeper than that.

I remember hearing about that, it affected F-105 operations, and also resulted in shortages that affected the USN as well (this actually lead to the USS Forrestal disaster).

In Thailand, at NKP when Sattahip got improved and the B-52 airbase nearby got really going they caused a shortage for every other airbase in the area.

Strangely it wasn't 750 lbs bombs we ran out of but the fins for them that held us back. . . . From my perspective as a low ranking USAF enlisted man, IMO, Rolling Thunder probably could not have continued full force, it needed the on and off effort to allow the munition makers and the supply system the chance to catch up

Because they figured they'd never fight a large scale conventional war ever again, they never produced enough bombs for such an event.

The B-52's running everything out makes a great deal of sense. Particularly after the Big-Belly mods came online.

 

[tyrodtom]

I don't think the B-52s suffered from much of a supply shortage, U Tapao was at the head of the supply train in Thailand right at the port of Sattahip. They seemed to have a higher priority too.
Everybody else , further away from the ports of entry , experienced shortages.

In 65 they were depending on what they had stored worldwide.
By the time the big belly program was going full swing and U Tapao was opened for B-52 in mid 67, they'd had time to ramp production of new munitions up, but it still wasn't enough.