Opinions On This Article I Found About The Zero

[SaparotRob]

Hey SparotRob,

re:". . .would the Zero been able to out-range the BF-109? . . ."

See my post#132 above.

I'm going with yes.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey FLYBOY J,

Good question. When I was working out the range for the A6M2, I wondered how the German pilots would have flown them in combat?

The Zero had a good ceiling, but the Vmax is significantly below the Bf 109, and about the same as the Bf 110. But the Zero would grossly outrange both. Maybe come in as high escort for the bombers? Then hang around to cover the returning bombers? They would have more than enough range to do so, if the ranges were similar to the BoB ops.

 

[PAT303]

While we focus on the technical attributes, advantages and disadvantages of the Zero hypothetically being used in the BoB, any thought of how the aircraft would be flown? Tactics?

It's a hard one, the European fighters were tough hard hitting aircraft that fought at speeds over 300mph and above 20,000ft which is outside the Zero's best performance parameters, if they crossed the channel below either they will get bounced all day long. If I had to use them I would attack from unconventional directions in small groups at low altitude to split the defenders an cause confusion, saying that the pilots would get armour, the seat would be 4mm steel with at least one more 4mm steel sheet spaced an inch apart from it to cause penetration shots to tumble.

 

[Mad Dog]

When the Zero was designed was common not put armour and SS tanks, also the Spitfire and Bf 109 were w/o.

The Russians were already putting armoured seats on the Polikarpov I-16s used by the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War years before the Zero's first flight.

 

[PAT303]

The Russians were already putting armoured seats on the Polikarpov I-16s used by the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War years before the Zero's first flight.

If the fighter attacking you spits out 160 rounds per second you are going to want pilot armour.

 

[pinsog]

The post above is talking about Mark II Hurricanes.

The only way a Hurricane is going to compete with a Zero or KI43 Oscar is if they have an altitude advantage and bounce them from above. If 1940 BoB British pilots meet an equal number of Zero's at the same altitude the British pilots are going to try to dogfight them and they will get decimated. Nothing turns like a Zero below 300 mph and a 1940 Hurricane doesn't have the speed in most of its flight regime to degrade the turning ability of the Zero.

In the Wildcat in the BoB thread I said training British pilots in gunnery skills was all that was needed, not a different plane. Several people said that wouldn't help because the British planes were always still climbing when they met the Germans. If that's true then the Zero would have thrashed them. If you aren't flying at over 300 mph in virtually any WW2 fighter except the Gladiator and CR42, then a Zero or Oscar is going to turn right inside you and send you home in a box.

"the Spitfire and Hurricane has armor" Zeros and Oscars shot down Wildcats, B26's, B25's, P40's and lots of other early war "well armored" aircraft so I don't think a Spitfire or a Hurricane is going to be a huge problem.

The Hurricane could ALWAYS out turn a 109, you always had that if nothing else. A Zero and Hurricane fought the same way except the Zero does everything better than a Hurricane except for diving speed. But unless the Hurricane starts out well above the Zero he will never get to use his diving speed advantage.

 

[pinsog]

If KI43 Oscars gave Mark VIII Spitfires "wrinkled skins and warped engine bearings" then what chance does a Hurricane have?

 

[ThomasP]

A somewhat extraneous addition the above (having almost nothing to do with the Hurricane's ability to maneuver with a Zero or Oscar) is that the Hurricane did not have to worry about wrinkled skins and bent engine engine bearers. Due to the method used in its construction it was very difficult to over-stress the airframe. Even at its Vmax in a dive any feasible G pull-out was relatively safe.

 

[pinsog]

A somewhat extraneous addition the above (having almost nothing to do with the Hurricane's ability to maneuver with a Zero or Oscar) is that the Hurricane did not have to worry about wrinkled skins and bent engine engine bearers. Due to the method used in its construction it was very difficult to over-stress the airframe. Even at its Vmax in a dive any feasible G pull-out was relatively safe.

My point is that if a Mark VIII Spitfire which is a 400+ mph airplane that climbs like a homesick angel is having to work so hard against crappy old KI43 Oscars that they are coming home with wrinkled skin and damaged engines, then how is it supposed to be that a Hurricane will do just fine? Or maybe Oscars and Zeros aren't the pushovers that some people like to make them out to be.

 

[pinsog]

https://wlv.openrepository.com/bits...n-Hough PhD Thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Everyone should read this. Aircraft start on page 164, tactics before that. It is an eye opener on allied vs Japanese fighters

 

[slaterat]

Here we go again...

 

[Shortround6]

crappy old KI43 Oscars that they are coming home with wrinkled skin and damaged engines, then how is it supposed to be that a Hurricane will do just fine? Or maybe Oscars and Zeros aren't the pushovers that some people like to make them out to be.

The Oscars and Zeros of 1943 are not the Oscars and Zeros of 1940 either.

 

[pinsog]

The Oscars and Zeros of 1943 are not the Oscars and Zeros of 1940 either.

Neither were the Spitfire VIII and Hurricane II

 

[ThomasP]

Hey pinsog,

Thanks for the link, an interesting read.

 

[PAT303]

A somewhat extraneous addition the above (having almost nothing to do with the Hurricane's ability to maneuver with a Zero or Oscar) is that the Hurricane did not have to worry about wrinkled skins and bent engine engine bearers. Due to the method used in its construction it was very difficult to over-stress the airframe. Even at its Vmax in a dive any feasible G pull-out was relatively safe.

I'd say the damage would most likely be caused by over zealous pilots having been accustomed to Hurricane's attacked the Zero's with too great a speed and realising that they are going to overshoot hauled back on the stick trying to turn back into the attack bending their aircraft.

 

[PAT303]

Or maybe Oscars and Zeros aren't the pushovers that some people like to make them out to be.

Or maybe the RAF pilots should have just B&Z the Japanese aircraft like the Americans did against them and the Luftwaffe for that matter?. In a straight up 1-1 fight the MkVIII holds all the aces.

 

[pinsog]

Or maybe the RAF pilots should have just B&Z the Japanese aircraft like the Americans did against them and the Luftwaffe for that matter?. In a straight up 1-1 fight the MkVIII holds all the aces.

The Mark VIII Spitfire was a superb aircraft, but the problem is if an Oscar is in gun range of you, then you are in gun range of him. An Oscar can turn on a dime and flip the tables instantly.

 

[pinsog]

I'd say the damage would most likely be caused by over zealous pilots having been accustomed to Hurricane's attacked the Zero's with too great a speed and realising that they are going to overshoot hauled back on the stick trying to turn back into the attack bending their aircraft.

I think you need to read this again. The British pilots weren't over stressing their Spitfires while having a 'Stuka' party. Sounds like they got into a furball that turned into an 'oh crap I might die moment, these guys are better than I thought'

 

[Mike Williams]

The Mark VIII Spitfire was a superb aircraft, but the problem is if an Oscar is in gun range of you, then you are in gun range of him. An Oscar can turn on a dime and flip the tables instantly.

Here's another opinion:

 

[PAT303]

I think you need to read this again.

Sounds to me like the British pilots were flying superior aircraft yet fought to the Oscars strengths, low speed maneuvering fight.