P-38 or Mosquito?

Which was better?

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I never said it couldn't go to Berlin. I said that the Mosquito could carry as much as the B-17, if the B-17 was going on a long run and the Mosquito was going on a short run. Where Berlin came in, I have no idea. Learn to read.

For example, the B-17 bombing Berlin would carry 6000 lbs worth of bombs. The Mosquito could not carry 6000 lbs worth of bombs to Berlin but it could carry 6000 lbs to Cherbourg.

Awfully defensive attitude you have, I simply state that a Mosquito was lost during the Amiens raid - as a fact - and there's a big rant and rave about how it got lost. Yes, in short, it was lost because a swarm of -190s got it.
 
It's not about learning to read with you, it's your interpretation and inaccurate statements!
I said Berlin because it was a long haul flight!. So it doesn't matter where the early B-17 variant flew too, the Mosquito could match it.....Even to Timbuktu!

That's news to me the Mosquito can carry 6000lbs.

As for the Amiens raid, the only reason the C/O got shot down, and i do say the only reason.... He completed the mission, BUT didn't fly straight OUT! as i said he stooge around observing a burning aircraft on the ground...Germany was full of swarming of 109's.
 
thats true. but back to the flack.
why u think there were to many torpedo bombers shot down, when they tried to attack a ship? yes,. they had to fly low to drop the torpedo.
what i want to say is, when you fly ure plane close to the ground, and u fly over a flak cannon, that cannon can hit you straight into ure cockpit, b4 ure over the cannon. and then it doesnt quit matter how fast you are, cuz they can alwayst hit u on the front. (u only shorten the very dangerous time if ure very fast.)
 
Again, you've failed in reading properly. The Mosquito could NOT carry the same payload as the B-17 over the same distance.

And again, I already know why he got shot down. That doesn't matter, it was just a simple statement. He got downed by -190s, not -109s.
 
First off Mandrake, if your going to quote and reply to multiple parties in a post, please indicate who you are quoting. This is easily done by changing the quote start tag from {quote} to {quote="whoever"}, using square rather than curly brackets.

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But this is really not valid. The B-17E was the first production model, and it was barely used in the ETO. The B-17F on the other hand, carried a larger bombload, which is what I was pointing out. The first Mosquito raid on Berlin was using the Mk VI variant, on January 30, 1943, so comparison to the B-17E is inappropriate as none were in service in the ETO at that time, and in fact the B-17G was already in action.

I'm sure you're referencing the following quote (or a similar one):


I've been searching, and so far what I've found is the Mk IV and VI Mosquitos could not carry the 4000 lbs bomb to Berlin, they instead carried 4 x 550 lbs bombs and drop tanks. These types of daylight attacks ended about summer 1943, because the speed of the Mosquito was no longer sufficient to protect it from German fighters. It was not until the 1944 that the Mk B.XVI carried the 4000 lbs bomb to Berlin, with drop tanks, and these attacks were carried out at night.

Also, your previous quote about the accuracy of the Mosquito is inaccurate. You said:


The accurate data is:


As you can see, this only referes to attacks on V1 sights, a job much better suited to low level attacks than high level attacks. Futhermore, the targets hit by the Mosquitos were those that were appropriate for their attacks, those that were not so well suited for Mosquito attack, because of defenses and/or terrain, were hit by other bomber types.

I'm not knocking the Mosquito. Personally I think it was a great plane, and if the RAF was intent on night bombing it probably would have made more sense to produce a plane similar to the Mosquito, but a little larger and made of metal, than the large 4 engine bombers that made up the bulk of Britain's bomber force. This would have resulted in a relatively lighter plane with the same speed capability and more bomb capacity. But to compare the Mosquito to the B-17, you have to focus on large scale brute force daylight attacks, which the Mosquito was not well suited to accomplish. The Mosquito was great for small, precision "raids" and as a pathfinder aircraft.

=S=

Lunatic
 
plan_D said:
I never said it couldn't go to Berlin. I said that the Mosquito could carry as much as the B-17, if the B-17 was going on a long run and the Mosquito was going on a short run. Where Berlin came in, I have no idea.
Click to expand...
Berlin comes into it, because the bomb-load for both bombers on a mission to Berlin is approx 4,000Ib
It was on shorter missions that the B-17 had the advantage. Being able to carry up to a maximum of 17,000Ib on very short range missions. While the Mossies max limit ,was 6,000Ib* (4,000Ib internal, 2,000Ib external) though this was very rare, the normal max was 4,000Ib.

*It was only from 1944 that the mosquito could carry a 4,000Ib Cookie in its internal bomb bay, before then the max internal bomb load had been 2,000IB.


I simply state that a Mosquito was lost during the Amiens raid - as a fact - and there's a big rant and rave about how it got lost. Yes, in short, it was lost because a swarm of -190s got it.
Click to expand...
The 2 Mossies lost (1 to fighters and one to flak) were not the high speed bomber marks, but the slowest of the Mossie marks(380mph), the armed (4x20mm, 4x.303MG, 2,000Ib bombs ) fighter-bomber FB IV's of the 2nd TAF


ps, the average bomb load for a B-17 on a operational mission over NW Europe in WW2 was 4,391 lbs.

pps, the average bomb load for a Lancaster on an operational mission was 8,572 lbs.
 
What is everyones problem with going on about the Mosquitos lost at Amiens? Is it an attempt to try and defend their loss or something? They were LOST end of story.

Again, the B-17 could carry more than the Mosquito - end of story.
 
but it wasn't shockingly uncommon for B-17s to only carry 2,000lbs to berlin, a feat the mossie could match, the B-17 never carried it's full pawload in combat, and someone's comment about the B-17 being able to blast their way to berlin, they were sitting ducks without fighter escort
RG said:
But to compare the Mosquito to the B-17, you have to focus on large scale brute force daylight attacks, which the Mosquito was not well suited to accomplish
Click to expand...

what makes you think the bomber that was too fast to be intercepted wasn't suited to the hundreds of daylight raids it carried out??
 
 
plan_D said:
What is everyones problem with going on about the Mosquitos lost at Amiens? Is it an attempt to try and defend their loss or something? They were LOST end of story.
Click to expand...
I thought you and the others would like to know some of the facts behind the loss

Again, the B-17 could carry more than the Mosquito - end of story.
Click to expand...
Not quite, it depended on the range. At long range the mossie had the advantage.
 
As far as bombloads go, it depends a lot on which version of the plane we are talking about, and the nature of the mission.

For daylight raids, the B-17F and G could carry 8000 lbs of bombs to deep targets such as Berlin. In large formations, the amount of bombs carried had to be reduced because more fuel was required for forming up, and as a result loads of 5000 or even 4000 lbs were generally used.

For the Mossie IV, daylight raids involved 2-4 500 lbs bombs with two wing drop tanks. These raids started in early 1943, and ended in the summer as German defenses, espeically radar, improved. A fully loaded Mossie IV with drop tanks could NOT outrun a German fighter. If they were intercepted, they had to dump their loads and run.

It was the Mossie B.XVI in 1944 that carried the 4000 lbs bomb to Berlin, and they did so at night. And they had the option to land at forward bases in France if necessary.


You really cannot compare the two, the B-17 attacking during the day and the Mossie attacking at night. The Mossie would have stood little chance of surviving and bombing Berlin in the day in 1944. On the other hand, if the B-17 were to have conducted such a raid at night, it could have carried 8,000 lbs of bombs (as they would not have had to form up so tightly or climb so high), more if it removed 5-7 of its defensive guns and their ammo and the 4-5 crewmen manning them.

=S=

Lunatic
 
the lancaster kicks ass said:
what makes you think the bomber that was too fast to be intercepted wasn't suited to the hundreds of daylight raids it carried out??
Click to expand...

Hundreds? Please document hundreds of daylight raids into Germany in 1943. I count... two to Berlin, some to the coastal areas in NW Germany, and that's about it. There well may have been more, but I think you are grossly overestimating the number of deep daylight raids made by the Mossie. Most raids were against targets such as Gestapo HQ's in France and the low-land countries.

=S=

Lunatic
 
I would like to point out, the Mosquito was the first to bomb Berlin during the day. 8)
 
the lancaster kicks ass said:
and as a night bomber the B-17 wouldn't be much good, the americans just didn't have the tactics or proper escorts..............
Click to expand...

That's silly. The USA had no problems switching to night bombing against Japan. The British had few problems switching from day to night operations. Why would you assume the B-17 would have such problems when others did not?

And, unlike the Lancaster, the B-17 would have been able to defend itself. The rear turret, top turret, and belly turret would have been sufficient to make night fighters much more careful about taking fire. The remaining guns could have been removed.

=S=

Lunatic
 
the lancaster kicks ass said:
and as a night bomber the B-17 wouldn't be much good, the americans just didn't have the tactics or proper escorts..............
Click to expand...
The B-17 was a great bomber, and so was the Lanc,( I don't want to take sides in this issue )

There was a unit of the 8th AF in NW Europe which did a number of night raids ( sorry, but I don't have the book which states this at the moment, so I can't give you the unit )

If the B-17 had been used as a night bomber on a large scale , I've no doubt they would have copied RAF tactics ( it is allowed, they were allies after all ) , and as for escorts they would have used the fighters the USAAF night-fighter units already used in Europe, the Beaufighter, Mosquito, and when it was ready, the Black Widow P-61.

One advantage of the B-17 being used at night would be an increased bomb-load, thanks to the fact they wouldn't have to carry the vast amount of ammo the day bombers did. (over 5,000 rounds of .50 ammo weighs a amazing amount )
 
The USAAF Night-Fighter units with Mosquitos and Beaufighters - WHAT!?!

It still couldn't carry as much as the Lancaster. So, as it was, Lanc at night - Fortress at day.
 
The normal load for a B-17 was 12000 rounds of ammo. Crews often snuck aboard another 2000 rounds. 1000 belted .50 rounds weighed about 300 lbs, the .50 itself weighed about 65 lbs and its mount probably at least another 25 lbs (for ball mounted guns). The Chin turret weighed on the B-17G weighed about 500 lbs not counting guns and ammo (based on the weight of the B-25 retractable periscope ball turret).

So lets say you took a B-17G and removed all the guns except those in the dorsal and belly turrets and the pair in the tail, and give each of those guns 800 rounds to fire (lets round to 5000 total rounds). That means we would be saving:

7 x .50 BMG's (65 lbs each) = 455 lbs
5 x mounts (25 lbs each) = 125 lbs
7000 rounds of belted ammo = 2100 lbs
chin turret = 500 lbs
Total weight savings: 3180 lbs

But were not done. Now lets remove some crew members. Each crew member weighs about 150 lbs, plus gear and O2, lets figure 250 lbs. The B-17 had an 11 man crew, but we only need: Pilot, Co-Pilot, Navigator/radio operator, bombadier, belly turret gunner, tail gunner, a total of 6 (we assume the bombadier and navigator would share the top turret). So that's 1250 lbs for a total savings of almost 4500 lbs!

With this configuration, the B-17 could easily carry 8000 lbs of bombs to any target in Germany. Yes that is still about 2000 lbs less than the Lancaster, but the B-17 as described could probably defend itself pretty well against night fighters, where the Lancaster could not. And the B-17 was a lot tougher than the Lancaster as well.

As I've said before, personally I think the smart thing to do would have been to switch the B-17's and B-24's to night raids for about 6 months in 1943, after the perils of unescorted daylight raids became apparent. This would have made the Luftwaffe' focus on night fighters to the exclusion of day fighters. Then, in early 1944, when the P-51's arrived and the P-47 range had been extended, the USAAF should have shifted back to daylight raids (and perhaps the RAF too except their bombers were not so well suited for it). This would have forced the Germans to try to shift their industry back to day fighters, but they still would have to anticipate a possible USAAF shift back to night operations, so they would have been sorely pressed to make choices between the two types of fighters, their resources would have been stretched even thinner, and whichever choices they made would inevitably have been wrong. Georing would have had a nervous breakdown!

=S=

Lunatic
 
You have to take into account the size of the bomb bay as well. Could the bomb bay accomadate another 3000 lbs worth of bombs? Also, for night bombing the B-17 would have had to been equipped with all the electronic thingy-majigs ( ) to fly and bomb at night.
 
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