P-38 or Mosquito?

[redcoat]

The USAAF Night-Fighter units with Mosquitos and Beaufighters - WHAT!?!

Both the Bristol Beaufighter (used by four USAAF night-fighter squadrons) and de Havilland Mosquito (used by one) were used by ETO/MTO USAAF night-fighter squadrons, and in at least one instance for each aircraft, were not replaced with P-61s until the European war was over. The Mosquito was used by the 416th NFS until June 1945, and the 417th NFS flew the Beaufighter until the end of hostilities.

 

[cheddar cheese]

and as a night bomber the B-17 wouldn't be much good, the americans just didn't have the tactics or proper escorts..............

The B-17 was a great bomber, and so was the Lanc,( I don't want to take sides in this issue )

There was a unit of the 8th AF in NW Europe which did a number of night raids ( sorry, but I don't have the book which states this at the moment, so I can't give you the unit )

If the B-17 had been used as a night bomber on a large scale , I've no doubt they would have copied RAF tactics ( it is allowed, they were allies after all ) , and as for escorts they would have used the fighters the USAAF night-fighter units already used in Europe, the Beaufighter, Mosquito, and when it was ready, the Black Widow P-61.

One advantage of the B-17 being used at night would be an increased bomb-load, thanks to the fact they wouldn't have to carry the vast amount of ammo the day bombers did. (over 5,000 rounds of .50 ammo weighs a amazing amount )

Due to the fact the B-17 was a day bomber and the Lancaster a night bomber I find it hard to justifiably compare the 2. Howver I feel that if the 2 planes were used in the same situation (day or night) the B-17 would always come out on top.

 

[Anonymous]

The B-17 bombay could actually accomodate 9600 lbs in bombs. It could certainly carry eight 1000 lbs bombs (which actually weighed about 1100 lbs).

Given the much less complicated and time consuming form-up for night operations, and the lower altitude requirement, there was pleanty of payload for the night electronics, most of which the B-17 already had anyway. Also, I didn't account anything for the removal of waste gunner armor.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Due to the fact the B-17 was a day bomber and the Lancaster a night bomber I find it hard to justifiably compare the 2. Howver I feel that if the 2 planes were used in the same situation (day or night) the B-17 would always come out on top.

The Lancaster was a great plane. It could carry a larger payload than the B-17 and it was significantly faster.

However, having B-17's (and B-24's) flying at night would have forced the German night fighters to treat every heavy they came upon with a lot more caution, and the Lancasters would have done a lot better as a result.

While it was proven that unescorted daylight bombers could not hold their own against enemy fighters, I suspect that at night they probably could have. Had the Lancaster been armed, lets say, with 2 x .50's in the tail, two in a dorsal turret, and two in a belly turret or blister, I believe they would have been able to do quite well against German night fighters. Against the B-17, I think German night fighters would have had a very hard time because of the firepower, armor, and overall toughness of the B-17.

There is certainly is no denying the Lancaster was one of the great bombers of WWII.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[plan_D]

Wait a minute, there's Mosquitos in the USAAF had US markings? I thought the USAAF only had them in the Pacific. And in the MTO? I need some PROOF of this!

You wouldn't take out the waist armour, or the B-17 could be split in half.

 

[evangilder]

I'll have to check my books later tonight, but I think I saw a pic of a Mossie with AAF markings in the Freeman book "The Mighty Eight, the Colour Record". I will look again. If I find it, I will scan it in and post.

 

[plan_D]

I know they had US markings in the Pacific. I didn't even know the Mossie served in the MTO (LG, score one Mosquito that's Russia, CBI, Pacific, ETO, Russia and MTO - if it's true).

 

[evangilder]

I did see a reference to the USAAF flyijng them with the 25th BG, 653rd BS in England from 1944-1945 as a weather reconnaissance aircraft. They did also fly PR versions. I am looking for the group numbers and will get back to you.

 

[Anonymous]

You wouldn't take out the waist armour, or the B-17 could be split in half.

The waist armor was added to the B-17G to protect the gunners, the G model had 850 lbs more armor than the F model. It was not required for structural integrity. So you would remove it if there were no waist gunners to protect.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

I'd guess that USAAF Mossies were photo-recon planes. ????

 

[evangilder]

From what I can tell so far, yes.

 

[plan_D]

I know for certain those in the Pacific were PR Mosquitos.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and the B-17 wouldn't have been able to adopt RAF tactics, the B-17 was so unsuited to our tactics, not to mention that even your precious norden would loose allot of accuracy as navigation would have become more difficult, whereas we had some navigaional aids, although they still weren't brilliant, chances are they americans would still try and use their day tactics, including a long form up time, reducing the payload from what you estimate, even if it did carry more than it did by day it'd be slower, and the NFs would still be able to bring them down..............

 

[Anonymous]

and the B-17 wouldn't have been able to adopt RAF tactics, the B-17 was so unsuited to our tactics, not to mention that even your precious norden would loose allot of accuracy as navigation would have become more difficult, whereas we had some navigaional aids, although they still weren't brilliant, chances are they americans would still try and use their day tactics, including a long form up time, reducing the payload from what you estimate, even if it did carry more than it did by day it'd be slower, and the NFs would still be able to bring them down..............

When Curtis Lamay took over the B-29 effort against the US switched over to night bombing tactics in all of a month.

What is it you think was soooo difficult about night bombing?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[plan_D]

Night-bombing is difficult. B-17s with some modifications could take on Night-bombing, but not as they were. And RAF tactics would be adopted, the Americans weren't stupid - lanc.

 

[redcoat]

I'd guess that USAAF Mossies were photo-recon planes. ????

This is about the Mosquito in US service, its from this web-site
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avmoss2.html#m8

General Henry "Hap" Arnold, commander of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF), witnessed a demonstration of the Mosquito on 20 April 1941 as a guest of Lord Beaverbrook. Geoffrey de Havilland JR was in prime form that day, screaming the machine low over the ground and performing sharp maneuvers with one engine feathered. Arnold was extremely impressed, and returned to the US with engineering drawings of the machine.

There matters more or less stood with the Yanks until late 1942, when a B.IV Mosquito was given to Colonel Elliot Roosevelt, the American President's son and commander of a USAAF reconnaissance squadron in North Africa, equipped with Lockheed F-4 Lightning reconnaissance aircraft. The B.IV was faster and had much longer range than the Lockheeds, and Elliot Roosevelt began to press for adopting the British machine.

In the meantime, Mosquitos were finally beginning to roll off the production lines at de Havilland Canada in the Toronto area, and in December 1942 Geoffrey de Havilland JR brought one of the first Canadian Mosquitos down to Washington DC. Hap Arnold ordered that airport traffic be held off for a half hour to allow de Havilland to put on an aerial demonstration over the city. Geoffrey De Havilland then left for California to perform more demonstrations. He went by train in order to see the country, and the Mosquito went separately. In Los Angeles he met with his cousin, actress Olivia de Havilland.

Hap Arnold now became very determined to get his hands on the Mossie, beginning with a offer to swap P-51 Mustangs for Mosquitos. The British turned him down. The Mosquito was increasingly seen as difficult to replace. Had Canada been producing Mosquitos in volume at the time, the Americans might have been able to get their hands on part of the production, but the Canadians were slow to ramp up, with only 90 Mosquitos built there in 1943. At least Arnold's persistent lobbying to get Mosquitos helped convince Bomber Command that they had something of value.
The Americans did manage to get their hands on a relatively small batch of Canadian aircraft. The US signed an agreement with the British government in October 1943 for 120 Canadian-built Mosquito bombers, but limited production meant that the US only got 5 B.VIIs and 35 B.XXs. They were converted to a reconnaissance configuration with US-built cameras, redesignated "F.8", and sent to the UK for service with the USAAF Eighth Air Force.

The F.8's camera suite was minimal and the single-stage Merlins really didn't provide the performance the USAAF wanted, and so the F.8s were eventually replaced by PR.XVIs. The Americans obtained over a hundred PR.XVIs, along with a handful of T.IIIs for conversion or continuance training.

American pilots converting from their Lockheed F-4 and F-5 Lightnings, which had "handed" propellers, had to be trained to deal with the Mosquito's tendency to roll against the rotation of its propellers on takeoff. There was a worse problem in that over-anxious fighter pilots tended to mistake Mosquitos for Messerschmitt Me-410s, which in fact did have a similar configuration, and so the USAAF gave their PR.XVIs red-painted tails as a recognition aid.

The majority of the Yank PR.XVIs were used in their intended photoreconnaissance role, but a good number of them were used for weather reconnaissance, and they were also modified for special tasks. Some were fitted with US-built "H2X" targeting radar, the American three-centimeter counterpart to the British ten-centimeter H2S, mounted in the nose radome. As American crews referred to H2X as "Mickey" for some forgotten reason, these were known as "Mickey Ships". Some USAAF Mosquitos were fitted out for dispensing chaff, and seven were fitted with communications gear to support Allied agents and resistance forces in Occupied Europe.

USAAF Mosquitos were also fitted to use the LORAN navigation system, the American answer to Gee, and as LORAN was something of an Allied standard later in the war it is plausible that some RAF Mosquitos had LORAN receivers as well.

Some sources also mention that the USAAF operated a squadron of NF.30s in Italy late in the war, but details are unclear. The USAAF returned all their Mosquitos at the end of the war, as part of the reverse Lend-Lease agreement.

 

[evangilder]

I found the pictures. It was indeed part of the 25th BG. The initial 20 or so were sent to Abbots Ripton to install chaff dispensers (I think the Brits called it 'window'). Normally, the bombers would carry chaff and the crews would drop it from the sides. It was also decided to have a separate aircraft fly ahead of the formation to confuse the radar operators before the bombers struck.

The red tails were for identification. It had previously been mistaken for an Me-410 by friendly fighters. The red prop spinner denotes that the aircraft was from the 654th bomb squadron.

 

[evangilder]

Looks like you beat me to it, Redcoat! Ah well, better to have it twice than not at all.

 

[plan_D]

Those pictures are great...and what's next to it in the bottom picture? Fitting for the thread.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and RAF tactics called for long streams of bombers in very loose formations, no mutual protection, if you're jumped you try and corkscrew or take evasive action, something the B-17 couldn't do, by day a lone unescorted B-17 would be picked off, it'd be no different at night..........