p 40

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

They only made 77 (?) P-47Gs in 1944, Production stopped in March of 1944, the rest of the P-47Gs were built in Dec 1942 and all of 1943.

In 1943 Curtiss built 400 or over P-40s in month at least 4 times. In 1944 they never built more than 275 P-40s in one month and only exceeded 200 planes a month 4 times.

Agreed 77 P-47G acceptances in 1944, by month from January to March - 45, 25, 7

2,001 P-40N acceptances in 1944, by month from January to November - 275, 241, 283, 202, 200, 73, 97, 155, 202, 193, 80

January to November 1944 deliveries were 261 for Australia, 41 for Brazil, 36 for China, 33 for the Dutch, 250 USSR, and the rest for the USAAF, if anyone has a copy of the USAAF SC-AP-16 (ex SC-8A) Aircraft Factory Acceptances and Deliveries reports for December 1944 and October 1945 or better still the SC-AP-12 U.S. Airplane Factory Deliveries – by Destination and Allocation reports, I would appreciate a copy, the AFHRA files are missing these months.

The single XP-40Q was officially accepted in April 1944. In 1944 I go with replacing the P-40 with the P-47 as the USAAF single engined fighter bomber. According to William Green and Gordon Swanborough the definitive P-40Q was a converted P-40N-25, the N-25 block began production in February 1944.

Francis Dean in America's Hundred Thousand reports the V-1710-73/F4R war emergency power (rammed) at sea level was 1,550 HP, but the -81 and later engines fitted to the P-40M and N it was 1,360 HP.

The allies felt short of aircraft in early 1944, particularly the long range modern types, P-40s as trainers would help reduce the number of P-51 required at least, but then "suddenly, overnight" the successes translated to an over supply of aircraft as loss rates went down, even as operations went up, then add impact of the training system wind down. The need to supply the USSR also comes into play but it is noticeable the end of production of the Hurricane was in July, P-39 in August and the P-40 in November 1944, while P-38 production began to wind down in the final quarter of 1944.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

while P-38 production began to wind down in the final quarter of 1944.

P-38 production never began to "wind down" the last quarter of 1944 -

In the book "P-38 Lightning at War" 2,633 P-38Ls were delivered between September 1944 and August 1945. I worked with people who built P-38s and I was told that the production line remained at the same pace until shortly after V-J day. At that point remaining contracts were cancelled and everything came to an abrupt halt. Aircraft that were in final assembly were completed and basically delivered, some of them brand new and flown from the Burbank plant directly to surplus/ salvage facilities in California and Arizona. 3,267 P-38Ls were cancelled, these were supposed to be produced by Lockheed Burbank and Consolidated-Vultee Nashville, Tennessee

 

[Shortround6]

P-38 production never began to "wind down" the last quarter of 1944 -

In the book "P-38 Lightning at War" 2,633 P-38Ls were delivered between September 1944 and August 1945. I worked with people who built P-38s and I was told that the production line remained at the same pace until shortly after V-J day. At that point remaining contracts were cancelled and everything came to an abrupt halt. Aircraft that were in final assembly were completed and basically delivered, some of them brand new and flown from the Burbank plant directly to surplus/ salvage facilities in California and Arizona. 3,267 P-38Ls were cancelled, these were supposed to be produced by Lockheed Burbank and Consolidated-Vultee Nashville, Tennessee

Several hundred of the last P-40s built were delivered straight to scrap yards.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

P-38 production never began to "wind down" the last quarter of 1944 - In the book "P-38 Lightning at War" 2,633 P-38Ls were delivered between September 1944 and August 1945

P-38 acceptances at Lockheed, July to December 1944, 367, 402, 397, 364, 324, 300. January to August 1945, 297, 241, 269, 225, 200, 150, 118, 53
Vultee January to June 1945, 4, 12, 20, 27, 25, 25. So 2,938 P-38L from Lockheed and 113 from Vultee were accepted September 1944 to end production.

P-38 By quarter, Q3/44 1,166, Q4/44 988, Q1/45 843, Q2/45 652.
P-47, Q3/44 1,794, Q4/44 1,515, Q1/45 1,563, Q2/45 1,534 (P-47M and N begin acceptances in Q4/44)
P-51, Q3/44 1,934, Q4/44 2,174, Q1/45 2,285, Q2/45 2,048. (P-51H begin acceptances in Q1/45 but only 12 accepted, then none in April, 14 in May, 104 in June)

1 XP-80, 1 XP-80A, 6 YP-80A and 230 P-80A accepted in 1945, with P-80A production beginning in February.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

P-38 acceptances at Lockheed, July to December 1944, 367, 402, 397, 364, 324, 300. January to August 1945, 297, 241, 269, 225, 200, 150, 118, 53
Vultee January to June 1945, 4, 12, 20, 27, 25, 25. So 2,938 P-38L from Lockheed and 113 from Vultee were accepted September 1945 to end production.

P-38 By quarter, Q3/44 1,166, Q4/44 988, Q1/45 843, Q2/45 652.
P-47, Q3/44 1,794, Q4/44 1,515, Q1/45 1,563, Q2/45 1,534 (P-47M and N begin acceptances in Q4/44)
P-51, Q3/44 1,934, Q4/44 2,174, Q1/45 2,285, Q2/45 2,048. (P-51H begin acceptances in Q1/45 but only 12 accepted, then none in April, 14 in May, 104 in June)

1 XP-80, 1 XP-80A, 6 YP-80A and 230 P-80A accepted in 1945, with P-80A production beginning in February.

There's a number of reasons why those "acceptance" numbers went down, primarily because of the P-80 line opening up and resources directed towards that effort. There was a time where both production lines were side-by side until P-80 production was moved to another facility at Van Nuys airport. Lockheed was still on the hook for over 3000 P-38 units until the contact was formally cancelled, that didn't happen until after V-J day.

"Acceptance" and "completion" need to be separated. "Acceptance" of the aircraft is at the customer's (US Government's) convenience.

 

[EwenS]

P-38 production never began to "wind down" the last quarter of 1944 -

In the book "P-38 Lightning at War" 2,633 P-38Ls were delivered between September 1944 and August 1945. I worked with people who built P-38s and I was told that the production line remained at the same pace until shortly after V-J day. At that point remaining contracts were cancelled and everything came to an abrupt halt. Aircraft that were in final assembly were completed and basically delivered, some of them brand new and flown from the Burbank plant directly to surplus/ salvage facilities in California and Arizona. 3,267 P-38Ls were cancelled, these were supposed to be produced by Lockheed Burbank and Consolidated-Vultee Nashville, Tennessee

That is not borne out in the official production figures. From Oct 1943 production figures rose to peak at 402 in Aug 1944. After that the figures were:-
1944
S - 397
O - 364
N - 325
D - 300
1945
J - 297
F - 241
M - 269
A -225
M - 200
J - 150
J - 118
A - 53
Total 2,939

The "run down" coincides with the start up of production of the P-80 in Oct but with double figures only being reached in May 1945.

Plus P-38 from Vultee Nashville
J - 4
F - 12
M - 20
A - 27
M - 25
J - 25
Total - 113 remainder cancelled.

Edit:- Geoffrey beat me to it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That is not borne out in the official production figures. From Oct 1943 production figures rose to peak at 402 in Aug 1944. After that the figures were:-
1944
S - 397
O - 364
N - 325
D - 300
1945
J - 297
F - 241
M - 269
A -225
M - 200
J - 150
J - 118
A - 53
Total 2,939

The "run down" coincides with the start up of production of the P-80 in Oct but with double figures only being reached in May 1945.

Plus P-38 from Vultee Nashville
J - 4
F - 12
M - 20
A - 27
M - 25
J - 25
Total - 113 remainder cancelled.

Edit:- Geoffrey beat me to it.

And again, those figures reflect what was "accepted" rather than what was actually rolled out of the factory? As stated I worked with people who were on the P-38 production line and I was told they were still doing their best to push out as many aircraft as possible until one day (after VJ day) everything came to a giant halt. That's why this post caught my eye.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Acceptance is when the US considered the aircraft produced, the government agrees to buy it, then it was delivered, there were 1,553 P-38L acceptances from Lockheed in 1945 and 1,565 deliveries. While there might be provisions for more aircraft the USAAF RC-301 reports say firm orders were

In October 1944 5,190 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 3,557 outstanding, Vultee was 2000 on order.
In January 1945 5,190 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 2,636 outstanding, Vultee was 2000 on order, 1,996 outstanding.
In March 1945 4,004 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 515 outstanding, Vultee was 113 on order, 25 outstanding, looks like 275 P-38L from Lockheed were cancelled in March, along with 60 from Vultee.
In June 1945, 4,004 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 365 outstanding

But ultimately only 3,810 accepted, production ending in August 1945.

According to the CAA Lockheed peaked at around 86,500 workers in June/July 1943, still at over 82,000 in December 1943, but a rapid drop to 65,500 in May 1944, down to 58,000 in December 1944, 53,750 in March 1945.

Workers in the airframe plants reached 936,500 in November 1943, down to 811,500 in June 1944, 713,000 in December and 706,000 in March 1945.

I doubt it is of much interest to anyone but from May 1944 the CAA breaks down employment at Lockheed into Burbank, Bakersfield Area, Fresno Area, Los Angeles Area and Santa Barbara Area

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Acceptance is when the US considered the aircraft produced, the government agrees to buy it, then it was delivered, there were 1,553 P-38L acceptances from Lockheed in 1945 and 1,565 deliveries. While there might be provisions for more aircraft the USAAF RC-301 reports say firm orders were

Having actually worked on several military production lines, I this isn't entirely accurate. The government decides to buy the aircraft when the contract is accepted. You can have dozens of aircraft pushed outside the facility awaiting acceptance and until that happens, they sit there. In these days there's a document called a DD250 which is the official acceptance of a military product.

There's a photos of a line up of P-80s sitting on the Plant B-1 flight line awaiting engines. Although basically completed, theses aircraft were not "accepted." The engines were Government Furnished IIRC.

In October 1944 5,190 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 3,557 outstanding, Vultee was 2000 on order.
In January 1945 5,190 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 2,636 outstanding, Vultee was 2000 on order, 1,996 outstanding.
In March 1945 4,004 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 515 outstanding, Vultee was 113 on order, 25 outstanding, looks like 275 P-38L from Lockheed were cancelled in March, along with 60 from Vultee.
In June 1945, 4,004 P-38L on order from Lockheed, with 365 outstanding

But ultimately only 3,810 accepted, production ending in August 1945.

Well based on what you're showing June 1945 4,004 P-38s were on order. I'd say this production line was far from winding down

According to the CAA Lockheed peaked at around 86,500 workers in June/July 1943, still at over 82,000 in December 1943, but a rapid drop to 65,500 in May 1944, down to 58,000 in December 1944, 53,750 in March 1945.

CAA? What is the CAA? What Lockheed Facility?

Workers in the airframe plants reached 936,500 in November 1943, down to 811,500 in June 1944, 713,000 in December and 706,000 in March 1945.

I doubt it is of much interest to anyone but from May 1944 the CAA breaks down employment at Lockheed into Burbank, Bakersfield Area, Fresno Area, Los Angeles Area and Santa Barbara Area

And there were other Lockheed facilities

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Having actually worked on several military production lines, I this isn't entirely accurate. The government decides to buy the aircraft when the contract is accepted. You can have dozens of aircraft pushed outside the facility awaiting acceptance and until that happens, they sit there.

My understanding is the Government contracts for a given number of aircraft of acceptable quality. After each aircraft has passed its flight tests it is accepted, the government agrees to pay the contractor and takes ownership, with ongoing production there will usually be aircraft undergoing tests and awaiting acceptance since normally no satisfactory test, no acceptance. Rather hard to do flight tests without engines unless the British slave equipment system is in use, where the factory due to some shortages holds a set of relevant parts to complete the aircraft, does the tests, acceptance happens then the parts are removed. After acceptance comes delivery.

Well based on what you're showing June 1945 4,004 P-38s were on order. I'd say this production line was far from winding down

I showed the firm order for 5,190 was cut to 4,004 by end March1945 and by end June 1945 there had been 3,639 accepted, leaving 365 outstanding or under two and a half months worth at June 1945 production rate and that rate was half that of January. You have to go back to some time in 1944 to have 4,004 P-38L outstanding on order. The P-38L production line was winding down from Q4/44 and the wind down was accelerating.

CAA? What is the CAA? What Lockheed Facility?

U.S. Department of Commerce - Civil Aeronautics Administration Office of Aviation Information - Division of Aviation Statistics - U.S. Military Aircraft Acceptances 1940-1945. (Dated October 1946?) The facilities were the airframe plants and associated locations, namely Lockheed Burbank, Bakersfield Area, Fresno Area, Los Angeles Area and Santa Barbara Area.

And there were other Lockheed facilities

Undoubtedly there were more, the CAA has another two, the modification centres at Dallas Texas and Van Nuys California.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

My understanding is the Government contracts for a given number of aircraft of acceptable quality. After each aircraft has passed its flight tests it is accepted, the government agrees to pay the contractor and takes ownership, with ongoing production there will usually be aircraft undergoing tests and awaiting acceptance since normally no satisfactory test, no acceptance. Rather hard to do flight tests without engines unless the British slave equipment system is in use, where the factory due to some shortages holds a set of relevant parts to complete the aircraft, does the tests, acceptance happens then the parts are removed. After acceptance comes delivery.

Yes and no - the contractor is issued a contract for a given amount of aircraft. During the course of the contract, progress payments are made for delivery of product, contract performance or both. "Acceptance" comes when the government formally recognizes that the unit is complete, met contract requirements (to include flight testing that may or may not involve a government flight test, sometimes that was delegated to the contractor) and issues the delivery paperwork (DD250). This was done by a Army Air Forces plant representative officer from the district (Los Angeles) AAFPRO office. Once this happened and the delivery paperwork was signed, the contractor received final payment for the aircraft. With that said, depending on AAFPRO manning or priorities, you many have completed airframes continue to roll out of the factory and parked until the AAFPRO representative accepts the unit. As far as "British Salve Equipment System," not applicable as far as I can see, and I have no idea how the British did business. I believe if there were shortages, components were taken off the assembly line (K-Balled) and used or the aircraft just sat until parts arrived. If that was the case the contract was modified and the contractor received partial payment and was allowed to charge the government storage fees, especially if delayed items were "government furnished."

I mentioned a photo of P-80s awaiting engines. I believe this was taken in 1946 at the B-1 facility's airfield/ flight line. I'm certain this was also done during P-38 production when aircraft were awaiting acceptance and/or delivery. When plant B-1 was eventually made to house machine shops, this area was converted to a parking lot. Today its a shopping center

I showed the firm order for 5,190 was cut to 4,004 by end March1945 and by end June 1945 there had been 3,639 accepted, leaving 365 outstanding or under two and a half months worth at June 1945 production rate and that rate was half that of January. You have to go back to some time in 1944 to have 4,004 P-38L outstanding on order. The P-38L production line was winding down from Q4/44 and the wind down was accelerating.

Well from what I see 3,267 P-38Ls were cancelled by August 1945. Assigned S/Ns 44-53328/54707 from Burbank, 43-50339/52225 from Convair (and I'm sure you know that the "43" in front of the serial numbers indicate the year the contract was issued). What I believe you're showing "winding down" was the government's "acceptance" of aircraft, not "production rate." If you look at your own numbers you'll find a real dip of "accepted" aircraft starting in March. After V-E day you had further decline.

According to several people who I know who actually worked there, the production line was still in full force until V-J day (Mid August). I remember an old supervisor telling me that one day they were working their butts off, the next day they were dismantling the production line, pushing aircraft that were completed to a certain extent out onto the flight line and scrapping everything else.

U.S. Department of Commerce - Civil Aeronautics Administration Office of Aviation Information - Division of Aviation Statistics - U.S. Military Aircraft Acceptances 1940-1945. (Dated October 1946?) The facilities were the airframe plants and associated locations, namely Lockheed Burbank, Bakersfield Area, Fresno Area, Los Angeles Area and Santa Barbara Area.

Undoubtedly there were more, the CAA has another two, the modification centres at Dallas Texas and Van Nuys California.

I have issues with that source. The CAA was a Civilian organization (FAA today), the others maybe. I would go by company and union statistics for real numbers. I posted on here on another thread the rise and decline of employment numbers throughout the war years taken from Lockheed and union sources, I'll try to find it. I'm not sure those numbers include "exempt" employees (supervision and salaried employees). Another issue I have with those numbers is nothing is said about Vega Aircraft, which although considered a subsidiary, was basically the same company and workers drifted between both "companies" as needs and company/ employee opportunities arose.

Now - I do recall a sizable reduction during the mid/ late 1944 - I believe that coming from the "winding down" of the Burbank B-17 production line which was being produced by "Vega." This matches the drawdown you posted.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

One last point as I don't want to continue to hijack this thread - in mid 1944, not only did you have the "winding down" of employee numbers from the end of B-17 production, you also had the completion of the Hudson/ Lodestar/ Ventura line as well, so those diminishing employee numbers weren't necessarily reflective of other programs (P-38, P-80, Constellation and P2V) that were beginning or still in full swing...

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Yes and no - the contractor is issued a contract for a given amount of aircraft. During the course of the contract, progress payments are made for delivery of product, contract performance or both. "Acceptance" comes when the government formally recognizes that the unit is complete, met contract requirements (to include flight testing that may or may not involve a government flight test, sometimes that was delegated to the contractor) and issues the delivery paperwork (DD250).

you many have completed airframes continue to roll out of the factory and parked until the AAFPRO representative accepts the unit. As far as "British Salve Equipment System," not applicable as far as I can see, and I have no idea how the British did business.

I am trying to keep things simple, just the transaction for a given aircraft, not other contract payments including what happens if an aircraft crashes under test before acceptance. And I am agreeing there will usually be completed but unaccepted aircraft on site, similarly accepted but undelivered aircraft, more often in winter than summer. The British slave system was a way to clear aircraft away from the factories, minimising storage space and the chances of losses when bombed. I do not know whether the US had a formal system to cope with aircraft awaiting parts before being able to flight test, things like the amount of storage space would come into play.

Well from what I see 3,267 P-38Ls were cancelled by August 1945. Assigned S/Ns 44-53328/54707 from Burbank, 43-50339/52225 from Convair (and I'm sure you know that the "43" in front of the serial numbers indicate the year the contract was issued). What I believe you're showing "winding down" was the government's "acceptance" of aircraft, not "production rate." If you look at your own numbers you'll find a real dip of "accepted" aircraft starting in March. After V-E day you had further decline.

The RC-301 reports as of end January 1945 total P-38L orders were 5,190 from Lockheed and 2,000 from Vultee, by end March that had dropped to 4,004 and 113, so 1,186+1,887 = 3,073 had been cancelled February or March, sometime later, July or August, another 194 cancelled from Lockheed, total cancelled 3,267.

The acceptances were matching the production rate, if it was not there would be large numbers of P-38 parked outside the factory. Production had been declining starting the final quarter of 1944. No one is disputing the people were working hard, the number of employees was dropping and that had to show up in the aircraft production rate, fewer people lower production. The idea the line was still at full force is not what the production figures say, people on the line is a different matter. Not sure what March is being referred to but US aircraft production peaked in March 1944, the same month as fighter and heavy+medium bomber production peaked, trainer production peaked in December 1942, light bomber in November 1943, transport in June 1944. Civil production began again in January 1945. The wartime system had gone through its expansion and in 1944 began to contract as per the overall war production plan. Post VE day the decline in production accelerated, August output was half of June, September a quarter of August, in October civil production was more than military, in December 1945 civil production was 797, military 195.

The CAA was a Civilian organization (FAA today), the others maybe.

The CAA/Department of Commerce was responsible for collating US Aviation Statistics pre war, as a result they had in place the systems and resources covering many more factories than the military did. During the war the CAA, USAAF and USN, plus the War Production Board, co-ordinated compilation of reports, taking the daily reports from the factories and producing the official statistics, it is why all the US production reports agree with each other, they are all really the one set.

Another issue I have with those numbers is nothing is said about Vega Aircraft, which although considered a subsidiary, was basically the same company and workers drifted between both "companies" as needs and company/ employee opportunities arose.

The reported CAA employment numbers are a snapshot on a given day and agreed there is an issue of who is counted. As for Vega the CAA was well enough aware of the situation to simply lump everyone under "Lockheed Burbank".

Now - I do recall a sizable reduction during the mid/ late 1944 - I believe that coming from the "winding down" of the Burbank B-17 production line which was being produced by "Vega." This matches the drawdown you posted.

The USAAF Statistical Digest notes in 1944/45 Lockheed "A" produced B-17 and Navy Patrol Bombers, Lockheed "B" produced P-38, P-80 and a few C-69.

From September 1943, the first full month of B-17G production, Lockheed made slightly over 100 per month, for 1944 the monthly production figures were 104, 100, 108, 101, 107, 104, 104, 108, 104, 104, 100, 100, for 1945 they were 108, 96, 108, 90, 75 ,50, 24, so the wind down probably began in late March 1945., not 1944.

One last point as I don't want to continue to hijack this thread - in mid 1944, not only did you have the "winding down" of employee numbers from the end of B-17 production, you also had the completion of the Hudson/ Lodestar/ Ventura line as well,

Lockheed ended 1943 building around 100 PV-1/B-34/Ventura a month, 1944 monthly production figures were 104, 75, 68, 55, 50, production ending in May, being replaced by the PV-2 Harpoon, with PV-2C production starting in March and ending in October, monthly figures 1, 3, 1, 4, 1, 6, 5, 9. The main production variant was the PV-2, production started in October 1944, monthly figures for the year 2, 11, 22, while production for 1945 was 68, 34, 70, 100, 86, 0, 11, 22, 19, 0, 5, 20, so a steady build up until mid 1945. Finally there was the PV-2D, production beginning in July 1945, monthly figures were 1, 11, 11, 0, 0, 12.

As staff numbers fell in early/mid 1944 the navy production also shrank, the P-38 headed back above the 387 in October 1943 after the change from J to L models, the B-17 continued at a regular pace. At the end of 1944 and early 1945 Navy production ramped up and the P-80 was being introduced, staff numbers continued to fall and that showed up in reduced P-38 production, not surprising considering with the P-38 cancellations as of end March 1945 Lockheed had to build another 515 P-38 to complete the contract, at average 1944 output that is one and a half months work, at March 1945 output that is still under 2 months work and the system was too complex to simply turn off without a lot of waste, it was best to run it down while running up the P-80 line.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am trying to keep things simple, just the transaction for a given aircraft,

And in reality it doesn't always work that way

The RC-301 reports as of end January 1945 total P-38L orders were 5,190 from Lockheed and 2,000 from Vultee, by end March that had dropped to 4,004 and 113, so 1,186+1,887 = 3,073 had been cancelled February or March, sometime later, July or August, another 194 cancelled from Lockheed, total cancelled 3,267.

So that's not the last quarter of 1944 and it shows the line was still open.

The acceptances were matching the production rate, if it was not there would be large numbers of P-38 parked outside the factory.

And there were - and there were more inside the factory that were scrapped, some unofficially. In the early 80s there were renovations undertaken around the Burbank facility in several locations and pieces of aircraft to include P-38s and Venturas were found buried in various places, this I witnessed first hand!

The CAA/Department of Commerce was responsible for collating US Aviation Statistics pre war, as a result they had in place the systems and resources covering many more factories than the military did. During the war the CAA, USAAF and USN, plus the War Production Board, co-ordinated compilation of reports, taking the daily reports from the factories and producing the official statistics, it is why all the US production reports agree with each other, they are all really the one set.

The reported CAA employment numbers are a snapshot on a given day and agreed there is an issue of who is counted. As for Vega the CAA was well enough aware of the situation to simply lump everyone under "Lockheed Burbank".

"A snapshot" - the numbers were continually changing as new programs were still in the works and other workers who either didn't have enough seniority or a specific job classification were being laid off. I knew people who were affected by this and at the time it was a "revolving door." My ex wife's father worked there during this time and it got so frustrating he eventually left Lockheed and got into another career field.

Personally I don't completely trust those numbers acquired by "bean counters" who were probably not located at the facility.

The USAAF Statistical Digest notes in 1944/45 Lockheed "A" produced B-17 and Navy Patrol Bombers, Lockheed "B" produced P-38, P-80 and a few C-69.

From September 1943, the first full month of B-17G production, Lockheed made slightly over 100 per month, for 1944 the monthly production figures were 104, 100, 108, 101, 107, 104, 104, 108, 104, 104, 100, 100, for 1945 they were 108, 96, 108, 90, 75 ,50, 24, so the wind down probably began in late March 1945., not 1944.

Lockheed ended 1943 building around 100 PV-1/B-34/Ventura a month, 1944 monthly production figures were 104, 75, 68, 55, 50, production ending in May, being replaced by the PV-2 Harpoon, with PV-2C production starting in March and ending in October, monthly figures 1, 3, 1, 4, 1, 6, 5, 9. The main production variant was the PV-2, production started in October 1944, monthly figures for the year 2, 11, 22, while production for 1945 was 68, 34, 70, 100, 86, 0, 11, 22, 19, 0, 5, 20, so a steady build up until mid 1945. Finally there was the PV-2D, production beginning in July 1945, monthly figures were 1, 11, 11, 0, 0, 12.

As staff numbers fell in early/mid 1944 the navy production also shrank, the P-38 headed back above the 387 in October 1943 after the change from J to L models, the B-17 continued at a regular pace. At the end of 1944 and early 1945 Navy production ramped up and the P-80 was being introduced, staff numbers continued to fall and that showed up in reduced P-38 production, not surprising considering with the P-38 cancellations as of end March 1945 Lockheed had to build another 515 P-38 to complete the contract, at average 1944 output that is one and a half months work, at March 1945 output that is still under 2 months work and the system was too complex to simply turn off without a lot of waste, it was best to run it down while running up the P-80 line.

And again, this was not the last quarter of 1944 -

As stated I knew people who were there and was told they were still working the P-38 production to the end of the war BUT there were people pulled from the P-38 line to work on the P-80 that was being run side by side the P-38 line (there's several photos of this). As stated, once the war ended, the P-80 line was eventually moved about 10 miles to the west, the airfield at B-1 closed. I believe the F-104 production line was initially there (completed airframes trucked to a different location for final assembly and fight test).

Now can we stop hijacking this thread and get pack to the P-40?!?!?

 

[GregP]

Now can we stop hijacking this thread and get pack to the P-40?!?!?

Amen!

 

[wlewisiii]

My personal favorite what-ifs in WWII aviation would be to have the P-40Q and P-61E (but with radar included) in full production by the end of 1942. Wouldn't have changed much if at all really but they would have been good for the US to have if they were ready by then. And they're 2 of my favorites

 

[drgondog]

Aahh, Jeff!

Lost him almost 24 years ago now. Lots of great memories there...

Cheers,



Dana

Jeff and I grew up together, beginning at Johnson AFB Japan, and continuing at Eglin, then by visit and phone. I solicited and got his advice about my first book format - essentially the same as Ethell/Fry Escort to Berlin. We were consulting about doing an 8th FC book in war diary format when he left us.

His dad, Irv called me the day he crashed in the P-38. At the time he thought that Jeff was hot-dogging on final, only to find out later that he ran out of fuel.

In retrospect, I think Escort to Berlin was his best researched book - and Mustang, the worst.

As to comments about Mustang ailerons, I called him about his comments, knowing that most P-51s in warbird community rigged for 10 degrees. He did not know that P-51B/D left factory at +/- 15 degree rigging.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Now can we stop hijacking this thread and get pack to the P-40?!?!?

I will try and make this my last word on this topic then.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I will try and make this my last word on this topic then.

It is your last word on this topic - I told you twice to get this thread back on track and you ignored me. I don't want to say it a third time!!!!!

 

[GregP]

They delivered the following P-40s:

1940 – 742
1941 – 2,246
1942 – 4,453
1943 – 4,258
1944 – 2,001
1945 – 0

With regard to the P-40Q, development was initiated by 1943, when P-40s were in full production. All 3 XP-40Qs were built up from other P-40 airframes. All were powered by 2-stage Allison V-1710 engines.


P-40Q-1 was built from a P-40K-10 airframe and had a V-1710-101 (F27R) engine. It made 1,500 hp @ 3,200 rpm @ 6,000 feet and 1,325 hp for takeoff. Q-1's first flight was 13 Jun 43. It had a turtledeck canopy and was later modified into the XP-40Q-2.


Q-2 had a cut-down rear fuselage and a bubble canopy. The engine radiators were positioned in the wings outboard of the main gear. The oil cooler and engine air intake were repositioned in the standard P-40 chin position, but were more shallow and smaller. It still had the -101 engine and, by Dec 43, Air Material Command recognized its performance and recommended that two more prototypes be constructed. Reportedly, Q-2 was delivered to Eglin Field, but was back at Curtiss by Jan 44. By this time, it had clipped wings (about a foot shorter each) and the engine weas a V-1710-121 (F28R) which delivered 1,800 hp @ 3,200 rpm @ 20,000 ft and 1,425 hp for takeoff.


A flight evaluation from Apr 44 again noted the XP-40Q-2 as superior to all other P-40s and a very good aircraft overall. The XP-40Q-2 had a 35 ft 3 in (10.7 m) wingspan and was 35 ft 4 in (10.8 m) long. With full engine power at 3,000 rpm and water injection, the aircraft achieved 420 mph (676 km/h) at 15,000 ft (4,572 m) and had a maximum climb rate of 4,410 fpm (22.4 m/s) at 5,000 ft (1,524 m).


The last 80 P-40s were delivered in Nov 44, and my contention is that the P-40Q, which was head and shoulders better than the standard P-40N or whatever model, could have been in production from Jun 44, and would have been gratefully accepted by the world supply of P-40 pilots due to the leap in performance over their old P-40 mounts.


The old ceiling of 15 – 16,000 feet would have been gone, and they could have done higher-altitude missions. Top speed was 423 mph, service ceiling was 39,000 feet and change, and the range was 994 miles, meaning about a 420-mile radius. Not great, but more useful within its range than the standard P-40. It was 40 – 60 mph faster than a standard P-40, it out-rolled a P-51 easily, and was more maneuverable to boot. Top speed was some 15 mph less than the P-51's speed at best altitude, but was just about as fast as a P-51 at 20,000 feet. It wasn't a world beater, but the P-40 mechanics were already working, the P-40 supply chain already existed, and everything about it was better than a standard P-40.


The only question in my mind was whether or not theV-1710-121 was production-ready. Allison could have worked it out, I'm sure, but the P-40Q could easily have been in service for the last year of WWII, had the desire to make it so been there. They didn't proceed with it, and I have no problem with that, but this is one "what if" that could very easily have been accomplished without impacting any other aircraft of importance, had they desired to do so.