P-47 vs IL-2 vs SU-2 vs Typhoon

Dimlee · Jan 2, 2022

Dimlee said:
Il-2 statistics can be tricky as large share of aircraft produced was held in reserve, probably up to fifty percent in 1944-1945. I should have something among the Russian sources, will check them soon.

Probably, Oleg Rastrenin is the best source for everything Il-2/Il-10 related. He wrote many articles and several good books, the earliest ones with his (late) co-author Vladimir Perov.
From one of his latest books:
Total combat Il-2 losses 1941-1945: 11,448
1941: 503
1942: 1,676
1943: 3,649
1944: 4,748
1945: 1,800 (01.06.1945)
Average flight/loss ratio: 53.5. In comparison: all fighters 104.5, all bombers 80.
Share of Il-2 in VVS aircraft of all types:
1941 0.2%, from the end 1942 to 1945 29%-32%
Total inventory on 10th May 1945 (front line, not including reserve regiments):
VVS Army - 3,075 of Il-2(incl. trainers), 214 Il-2KR(spotters) and 146 Il-10.
VVS Navy - 197 Il-2 and 12 Il-10.
VVS Army has received in 1941-1945: 8,067 Il-2 one-seaters, 23,882 Il-2 two-seaters, 1,134 Il-10.
Source:

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Dimlee · Jan 2, 2022

NevadaK said:
Thank you in advance, Dimlee.

I have to admit that I didn't know very much about the IL-2 other than that it was produced in huge numbers and was considered essential to the Soviet war effort. After following this thread and reading through what is available online, I have a newfound appreciation for it and a slightly better understanding of how it was used vs ETO ground attack practices. Earlier in this thread there is a discussion about the IL-2's lack of bomb or rocket carrying capacity, however, unless I'm mistaken the IL-2's primary weapon was a cluster bomb that was developed for the IL-2 in 1942/43. Here is a wiki link:

PTAB (bomb) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and then this link from Feldgrau.net with a translation regarding the use of the cluster bomb. There are some numbers regarding efficacy that are debatable and are challenged later in the thread, but I'm adding this link more for a description of the use of the PTAB:

IL-2 against panzers - Feldgrau.net

Looking at the evolution of IL-2 tactics, it seems that early in the war the standard practice was to make low level "charges" of 4-6 aircraft in an abreast formation first with machine guns or rockets and then a second pass with bombs. (These are popular images from Soviet wartime footage) There were very high loss rates associated with these attacks. Later, when the PTAB was developed, IL-2 tactics evolved to where formations of IL-2's would loiter over the combat zone for up to 30 minutes in a defensive circle and then in small batches make attack runs and then rejoin the circle. The first run would be a level bombing pass with cluster bombs and then later runs would be with guns or bombs/rockets.

One of the articles that I read stated that the cluster munition was developed following analysis of IL-2 effectiveness and the realization that IL-2 pilots often lacked the skill to be accurate with single bombs/rockets or strafing. I'm not familiar with a comparable weapon system in the ETO.

I'm curious if you can add any insights as to the effectiveness of Soviet cluster munitions and whether I have interpreted the development of the IL-2 tactics correctly.

Kk

Tactics: there were many improvements certainly and pilots training improved. However, in my opinion, tactical changes helped to reduce the losses mostly from the fighters and not that much from the German AAA which became stronger every year. Unfortunately, Il-2 aircraft (and crews!) remained a cannon fodder of the VVS.
PTAB: I think it is one of the most effective anti-tank munitions in WW2... on the proving ground/firing range. German tank force has quickly learned and installed skirts and screens which reduced PTABs effectiveness. Also, PTABs should be dropped in level flight on the steady course on the 200 m altitude - probably as dangerous as the early war torpedo bombers run.

Escuadrilla Azul · Jan 7, 2022

Clayton Magnet said:
Well, now we know for sure, an IL-2 can blow a Tiger's turret right off. Here is a clip from a recent Russian movie, that actually has decent CGI. And DShK instead of UB machine guns, apparently.

I very much like also the Su-27 Kobra like maneuver!

Now seriosly, I have heard that the Il-2 was fairly maneuvrable but don't if some kind of maneuver like that was a sound combat defensor. I don't think climb rate was a strong point of the Il-2. Won't It make it lose to much energy?

Beside the artistic licenses, I enjoyed the aerial combat secuence, very nice.

Dimlee · Jan 7, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
I very much like also the Su-27 Kobra like maneuver!

Now seriosly, I have heard that the Il-2 was fairly maneuvrable but don't if some kind of maneuver like that was a sound combat defensor. I don't think climb rate was a strong point of the Il-2. Won't It make it lose to much energy?

Beside the artistic licenses, I enjoyed the aerial combat secuence, very nice.

It was probably good in a sustained turn if in very light condition. As I remember, it was Grislawski who once found himself in a trouble dogfighting Il-2 near the ground. Allegedly, that Shturmovik was specially lightened and used as an escort "fighter". Grislawski had to extend flaps of his Bf-109 in order to tighten the circle and to get on Il-2's tail.

BiffF15 · Jan 7, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
I very much like also the Su-27 Kobra like maneuver!

Now seriosly, I have heard that the Il-2 was fairly maneuvrable but don't if some kind of maneuver like that was a sound combat defensor. I don't think climb rate was a strong point of the Il-2. Won't It make it lose to much energy?

Beside the artistic licenses, I enjoyed the aerial combat secuence, very nice.

Entertaining, yes. Able to pull that stunt in a straight winged WW2 aircraft, no.

Cheers,
Biff

SaparotRob · Jan 7, 2022

BiffF15 said:
Entertaining, yes. Able to pull that stunt in a straight winged WW2 aircraft, no.

Cheers,
Biff

This is the internet. I want nonsense, not facts.

Escuadrilla Azul · Jan 7, 2022

Dimlee said:
It was probably good in a sustained turn if in very light condition. As I remember, it was Grislawski who once found himself in a trouble dogfighting Il-2 near the ground. Allegedly, that Shturmovik was specially lightened and used as an escort "fighter". Grislawski had to extend flaps of his Bf-109 in order to tighten the circle and to get on Il-2's tail.

IIRC some of those lightened Il-2 were used to shot down german transport planes (maybe bombers?).

BiffF15 said:
Entertaining, yes. Able to pull that stunt in a straight winged WW2 aircraft, no.

Cheers,
Biff

If you say, no doubt about that.

As a F-15 rider, what do you think of the Kobra maneuver? It as any worth in combat or is merely an airshow stunt?

Clayton Magnet · Jan 7, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
As a F-15 rider, what do you think of the Kobra maneuver? It as any worth in combat or is merely an airshow stunt?

I am also interested in the answer!
Seems like a great way to dump a LOT of energy for a fleeting chance to point the nose at someone.

Escuadrilla Azul · Jan 7, 2022

SaparotRob said:
This is the internet. I want nonsense, not facts.

C'mon, Clayton had already gave us a Kobra maneuvering Il-2 blowing Tiger turrets with a 0.9 pound rocket!

What more do you want?

A gigant alligator vs an anaconda?

A shark infested tornado in NYC?

Undefeated nazis from the dark side of the Moon riding T-Rex?

What an insatiable guy are you!

SaparotRob · Jan 7, 2022

I want an alligator fighting giant groundhogs in the secret Antarctic base.

Escuadrilla Azul · Jan 7, 2022

SaparotRob said:
I want an alligator fighting giant groundhogs in the secret Antarctic base.

I guess that those groundhogs will have front armour!

BiffF15 · Jan 7, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
IIRC some of those lightened Il-2 were used to shot down german transport planes (maybe bombers?).

If you say, no doubt about that.

As a F-15 rider, what do you think of the Kobra maneuver? It as any worth in combat or is merely an airshow stunt?

The true answer I believe is it depends. If you are offensive to neutral and across the circle from someone (Lufbery) and can get either a fleeting gun shot (snapshot / more close range option) or a high off bore sight heater (heat seeking missile / longer ranged option). Using the clip art and the planes at 12 & 6 o'clock.

If you are defensive, and your adversary is inside gun range and about to pull his nose on / through you it would be useful. Doing that would keep his nose off, while causing enough closure to turn the fight neutral or maybe even a role reversal. Don't confuse this with fuselages aligned / close (think guy at your six going the same or almost the same heading). In the latter case it just makes you a bigger barn door to shoot at.

The biggest thing the Cobra maneuver shows me is that the guy has great flight controls.

Like any move, knowing when to use it, and the ramifications is important.

Cheers,
Biff

nuuumannn · Jan 7, 2022

pbehn said:
One issue, I dont know how it applies to modern tanks was "spalling". If you hit a metal structure hard enough on the outside pieces start flying about on the inside. Spall - Wikipedia

British tankers in the Great War used to wear these masks on their faces to protect them from shrapnel created from external hits. Note the chain mail. They weren't overly effective but this was the Great War and the whole tank thing was in its infancy.

Tank mask

nuuumannn · Jan 7, 2022

Clayton Magnet said:
Here is a clip from a recent Russian movie, that actually has decent CGI. And DShK instead of UB machine guns, apparently.

I enjoyed that, that was fun. Yup, graphics are great. not gonna say anything about accuracy, probability or stuff, just gonna enjoy the visuals.

SaparotRob · Jan 7, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
I guess that those groundhogs will have front armour!

Good point! Radioactive armor.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 7, 2022

BiffF15 said:
The true answer I believe is it depends. If you are offensive to neutral and across the circle from someone (Lufbery) and can get either a fleeting gun shot (snapshot / more close range option) or a high off bore sight heater (heat seeking missile / longer ranged option). Using the clip art and the planes at 12 & 6 o'clock.

If you are defensive, and your adversary is inside gun range and about to pull his nose on / through you it would be useful. Doing that would keep his nose off, while causing enough closure to turn the fight neutral or maybe even a role reversal. Don't confuse this with fuselages aligned / close (think guy at your six going the same or almost the same heading). In the latter case it just makes you a bigger barn door to shoot at.

The biggest thing the Cobra maneuver shows me is that the guy has great flight controls.

Like any move, knowing when to use it, and the ramifications is important.

Cheers,
Biff

Thanks Biff for the insight. My father in law (test pilot) Has some time in F-15s and used to deliver them from the factory (great job). He had a similar take but in the bigger picture didn't think too much for the maneuver, thought it was "great for airshows."

WARSPITER · Jan 7, 2022

SaparotRob said:
Good point! Radioactive armor.

Whole thing to be fought at -39 degrees.

Howard Gibson · Jan 7, 2022

I saw an American movie set in 1943 in which a P-40 climbed up after a zooming Bf109K, caught it and shot it down. It's CGI, so it must have happened!

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 7, 2022

Howard Gibson said:
I saw an American movie set in 1943 in which a P-40 climbed up after a zooming Bf109K, caught it and shot it down. It's CGI, so it must have happened!

I once witnessed a P-39 shoot down a Tie Fighter. Might even have been Darth Vader, but I couldn't be sure, because it was at night.

GrauGeist · Jan 9, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
I once witnessed a P-39 shoot down a Tie Fighter. Might even have been Darth Vader, but I couldn't be sure, because it was at night.

Others weren't so lucky...

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