Mr Der Adler ist Gelandet
Mr Drgondorg,trully, is a great researcher and writer, and pilot,and scientist and we should not dissmiss him quickly. His opinion is very important
But why we should dismiss quickly as "hyperbole and exxageration" the opinions of the pilots that WERE THERE ? Their opinions diasagree with some of the conclusions mentioned above
And since , the last years , continiously the claims and the memoirs of the german pilots are questioned as unreliable, why the researchres with acces toi them dont ask them directly to give explanations? They deserve at least a chance to "apologise"
Reschke is heavily attacked even at this forum. Why dont you ask him directly to give his opinion. Schack, i believe is still alive. He also is heavily attacked. I dont know if rudorffer is still alive,and anyway he was never accesible, but would be most interesting to ask him
The air battles of 1944 were very complicated . Many factors affected the final result. The arguments above ,in my opinion, are selective and result of simplifications.
Jim - your comments have merit. Mine deserve an explanation.
I have known many US, some Japanese and 5-10 RAF/RCAF plus the same number of German fighter pilots including Galland and Krupinski and Rall. I do not denigrate the experience or the bravery of any fighter pilot.
Having said this I heve been present when many friendly conversations between US and German pilots had at one point or another captured comments like "If you Americans had not had such material advantage it (the air war over Germany) would have had a different outscome". I was present during one such conversation between a famous JG11 ace (to remain un-named) described the swarms of Mustangs he fought over Berlin during the first week of March, 1944. To which Goodson replied "Hell you say, I was There!" - and of course he WAS there as an ace of the 4th FG, and operationally experienced for 12 days in the P-51B.
The point Goodson made is that he was one of three Mustang and three Lightning Groups escorting 700+ 8th AF bombers to Berlin and surrounding area. Further his FG was the only one escorting the entire 1st BD comprised of 12 B-17 Bomb Groups.
For his LW ace friend to focus on the swarms of Mustangs on that day could be accepted as friendly exageration but the simple facts were that for there to be any form of numerical disadvantage for his Jagdgerschwader then they must have taken off and engaged All of the 4th FG with one staffel... But JG11 put up 50+ on that day to intercept and 39 to pursue on the way back to England. In all the LuftFlotte Reich put up 300+ fighters from Hannover to Potsdam, and perhaps 150 from Berlin back to Dummer Lake. The battle to and/from Dummer Lake was fought more by JG2 and JG 26.
Now take a close picture of one JG making contact with the bombers and engaging also with one Group of Mustangs - whilst the 354th was with the 3rd BD and the 357th was with the 2nd BD B-24s.
That scenario is repeated throughout the Battle of Germany between the Mustang groups and the LuftFlotte Reich. Two things are clear. The LW was outnumbered by 8th AF BC alone and when ever they encountered a box od bombers they were in the vicinity of 40-50 B-17/B-24's. Add to that any single group of Mustangs they might encounter and the odds in tha local cubic mile are even - if you are attacking with 2 Gruppe's. To reach total combined odds of 1:10 you must attack in Staffel level and count the bombers in your account.
I have a theory and it is strictly a light theory with no proof. The LW swept the French and the British in 1939/1940. They were stalemated in the BoB, they fought superbly in the Desert while undermanned. They swept the Russians in 1941 and 1942. They fought the Russians to a standstill while undermanned in 1943. They stopped unescorted US 8th AF in 1943.
They were crushed by 8th FC in 1944 when the Mustang engaged.
Is it possible that deep down those magnificent German pilots could not rationalize that the overfed, arrogant/cocky, overpaid US fighter pilots could show the courage and aggressiveness to defeat them - unless they (Americans) had overwhelming numbers and material advantage? And then subconsciously remembered the air battles as hopeless because of the overwhelming superiorirty?
I pose that question because there w.ere more than a few German aces who remembered the RAF as the toughest opponent..
I have no quarrel with any assessment by the warriors that fought each other - but as a historian I do have access to the facts and opinions based on facts that have brought both LW and US and RAF operations to light in great detail and variety - in contrast to anecdotal recollections following WWII by ALL combatants - that show much of what was said and cast on paper by so many authors was imply not in line with facts we have now.
To close. I should not use of 'hyperbole' to describe Lipfert or Rudendorfer or Reschke's rememberances - to coin a phrase "I wasn't there". Having said that I am very comfortable in the summation of both historical force disposition and various orders of battle to conclude that the US fighter pilot more often fought against greater numbers of German aircraft in 1944. Perhaps the definition of 'outnumbered' needs to be further clarified.
I respect your opinion Jim - we have dueled historical perspective before.