P-51 Mustang in unusual camo (3 Viewers)

[Mustangtmg]

Tengu, this was the first batch of P-51s to enter service with the USAAF. These had no letter after the P-51, hence they were just known as P-51s. The first batch was sent to England and were known as Mustang Is and were armed with four 50 caliber Brownings and four 30 caliber Brownings. Two 50s under the chin, which had a bulged faring, and one in each wing and two 30s in each wing. The Apache had six 50 caliber, two under the chin, with no farings, and two in each wing. Another easy way to tell an Apache is the landing lights, both of which are mounted in a double fixture on the left wing. Hope this helps. And if I have goofed here, someone please correct me.

Excuse me, but has NO ONE corrected the info on this aircraft all this time. It's an NA-91 aircraft, 92 of which went to the RAF under Lend Lease and 58 to the US ( 1 to USN and 57 to USAAF) as "P-51" (no letter suffix --- already mentioned) "Apaches." They officially became Mustangs in the USAAF in July, 1942.

The RAFs were named "Mustang Mk IA" --- most of the USAAF's P-51 Mustangs became Tac-R aircraft after cameras were added in 3 (maybe more) locations in the US, and a couple years later were redesignated "F-6As." They kept their four 20 mm Hispano Mk II cannons (license-built by Oldsmobile), even after cameras were added. Two of the NA-91s became the XP-51B Mustang prototypes when Merlins and 4-bladed props were adapted to the airframe, along with cooling system and other changes. The one that went to the USN became a "chase plane" and sorta "never was heard of again."

The NA-97 A-36A Mustang followed the NA-91 aircraft and were NEVER officially named ANYTHING but "Mustang," although some of the pilots and groundcrewmen in the 27th FBG in the MTO wanted them renamed "Invaders," but Douglas already had that name on their excellent A-26 Invader.

What else can I tell you? OH, and I have scans of historical documents, most of which came from the USAAF and NAA, so they're PRIMARY sources, which naturally I trust over anything you can read in Wikipedia or on websites.

Please reply to me if I've made any errors in my clarification above --- I'm only human and mistype stuff alllll the time!

Thanks.

MustangTMG

 

[mjfur]

P-51 41-37426, which received the BuNo 57987 Mustang! - Documents

 

[GrauGeist]

Pretty sure people were more interested in the experimental camo in this seven year old thread...

 

[at6]

I wonder what ever happened to Pampa14.

 

[rochie]

sorry was just counting

 

[fubar57]

I wonder what ever happened to Pampa14.

I think he's been run off every site he posted on. I know of two others

 

[N4521U]

I see a P-51A in my future!!!!!!!
Well me and the Odd, or even ridiculous, searching the web, This link came up.
Wouldn't you know it would be on WW2! What a wonderful place this is..........
So in looking around the web, even more. A couple of things I have noticed.
1, The second photo in post #5 the top ridge, tail to nose looks a bit lighter in color than the darker Dazzle.
2, Likewise it appears if the wing tops are the same shade and is depicted as that in illustrations and builds on the www.
So I am wondering if the example was merely pulled off the assembly line in 1942 O.D. with the vertical and undersides
painted white and the actual dazzle dark was in fact black?
There are some Paper 1/33 scale models in these colors. Another 1/72 plastic kit was painted Grey, with the black and white camo.
I'm leaning more to the O.D. base as the first lots of A's were, if I am not mistaken, destined for the RAF in O.D.?

 

[vandee]

Was it off this carrier?

 

[Ed Williamson]

Was it off this carrier?
View attachment 782691

That's HMS Argus, commssioned in 1918.
Dazzle pattern camouflage was widely used by the Royal Navy in WW1.

 

[pbehn]

Well, no P-51 was ever torpedoed so it worked.

I see a P-51A in my future!!!!!!!
Well me and the Odd, or even ridiculous, searching the web, This link came up.
Wouldn't you know it would be on WW2! What a wonderful place this is..........
So in looking around the web, even more. A couple of things I have noticed.
1, The second photo in post #5 the top ridge, tail to nose looks a bit lighter in color than the darker Dazzle.
2, Likewise it appears if the wing tops are the same shade and is depicted as that in illustrations and builds on the www.
So I am wondering if the example was merely pulled off the assembly line in 1942 O.D. with the vertical and undersides
painted white and the actual dazzle dark was in fact black?
There are some Paper 1/33 scale models in these colors. Another 1/72 plastic kit was painted Grey, with the black and white camo.
I'm leaning more to the O.D. base as the first lots of A's were, if I am not mistaken, destined for the RAF in O.D.?

I was thinking the same, does it have to be just black and white? Sometimes it is hard to tell the colours, they could be dark blues and reds? On an imaginary post war war bird.

 

[Wurger]

the pic source: the net.

 

[GrauGeist]

The USAAC experimented with some wild camoflage schemes on the P-36, too.

 

[N4521U]

I'm going with black, SMS Camo Black to be specific, on white with O.D. topsides.

 

[ColFord]

I see a P-51A in my future!!!!!!!
Well me and the Odd, or even ridiculous, searching the web, This link came up.
Wouldn't you know it would be on WW2! What a wonderful place this is..........
So in looking around the web, even more. A couple of things I have noticed.
1, The second photo in post #5 the top ridge, tail to nose looks a bit lighter in color than the darker Dazzle.
2, Likewise it appears if the wing tops are the same shade and is depicted as that in illustrations and builds on the www.
So I am wondering if the example was merely pulled off the assembly line in 1942 O.D. with the vertical and undersides
painted white and the actual dazzle dark was in fact black?
There are some Paper 1/33 scale models in these colors. Another 1/72 plastic kit was painted Grey, with the black and white camo.
I'm leaning more to the O.D. base as the first lots of A's were, if I am not mistaken, destined for the RAF in O.D.?

Just to be clear, the aircraft in the photos and that was the subject of the camouflage trials was a North American NA-91 P-51 (no suffix) Mustang, which was the Mustang IA in RAF service. 150 built as first Lend Lease order for RAF, only variant with the 4 x 20mm cannon armament ex the factory, all others had either 'mixed' MG and HMG or all HMG armament. The NA-91 was effectively an evolutionary development of the earlier NA-83 Mustang I built for the RAF, with the principle change being the armament change to the all cannon armament and some detail changes in terms of the sub-variant of the Allison V-1710 initially fitted, engine controls, and a few other refinements identified from the earlier NA-73 and NA-83 Mustang I production batches as a result of testing and operational use.

After Pearl Harbor, decision was made by US Government to retain some of the production run for USAAC/USAAF use. Eventual split was 92 to RAF and 58 retained in USA - confirmed by Air Ministry and US records. As these were still in the proces of being produced and prepared for delivery at time that decision was made, it meant aircraft destined for RAF and aircraft destined for USAAC/USAAF were finished differently at the factory by NAA. RAF aircraft received camouflage and markings that was equivalent to early war RAF temperate land scheme with early style national markings, whilst USAAC/USAAF destined aircraft were finished in US OD41 over NG scheme with US national markings. There is the fairly well known period Kodachrome photo taken by Alfred Palmer showing a number of P51s on the ramp at NAA in both the RAF and USAAC/USAAF schemes. Note how the Mustangs destined for RAF wear US markings on fuselage and wings whilst they are being test flown in USA - RAF markings on fuselage and wings are already applied and US markings are a temporary decal placed over RAF markings that were removed before aircraft disassembly and crating for delivery to UK - but already have RAF fin flash on tail and RAF serial applied visible.

From all the information available and what little surviving documentation there is of these trials, the aircraft retained its factory applied OD over NG scheme, and had the white and black pattern applied over that. The upper surfaces of the aircraft when viewed directly from above, so top of front cowling, spine of fuselage, wing tops and horizontal stabiliser and elevators remained in OD. There was some discussion without any final firm conclusions about the colour of the propellor spinner tip, if it was black or if it was red - a number of other Mustangs being used for trials had red prop spinner or prop spinner tips. Note from attached photo, ex-NAA propellor spinner for USAAC/USAAF P-51s were OD.

North American NA-99 P-51A Mustang - Mustang II in RAF service - was two models of Mustang after the NA-91. It came after the NA-97 A-36A Mustang. Similar to the NA-97 it reverted to an all HMG armament in keeping with USAAF requirements, had a fixed radiator air intake below the fuselage - the NA-73, NA-83 and NA-91 all had the earlier moveable front intake 'alligator mouth' ramp, then had other detail changes in terms of placement of landing lights, pitot heads, engine sub-type, style of exhausts, etc. One of the key visual changes from the earlier 73/83/91 to the 97/99 was a redesign of the carburettor air intake on top of the engine cowling - the later two were widened to allow fitment of larger in line air filters for use in dusty/sandy environments. If you want to build a model of this subject aircraft you would need in 1/48th the AM or Academy re-pop of the kit, of the P-51/Mustang IA, or in 1/72nd Academy and Italeri both did kits with P51/Mustang IA subjects/options. There are hints from Eduard that they might do early Allison engine Mustangs as a subject in 1/48th in the future but could be some time off. Couple of other mainstream manufacturers 'sniffing around' the subject in both 1/48th and 1/32nd with no definite timeframes or decision to proceed yet.

Well, no P-51 was ever torpedoed so it worked.

I'll have to go back and check my records, but.........some P-51s were lost during shipping to the UK, so technically they were torpedoed. But either crated or cocooned as cargo on ships that were sunk by U-Boats, normally wearing standard factory applied C&M. So begs the question, if they had worn the special camouflage, would the ship they were on still have been torpedoed?

 

[special ed]

What is the story on the camera in the canopy blister on the dazzle bird?

 

[GrauGeist]

What is the story on the camera in the canopy blister on the dazzle bird?

Early NA-91 F-6 photo recon platform.

 

[ColFord]

What is the story on the camera in the canopy blister on the dazzle bird?

The early NAA initial designed, USAAF modified and adopted for service, early oblique camera installation. Attached page from the NA-91 P-51 US Pilot's Manual, section on photographic equipment, shows both the oblique and 2-position vertical installation in the P-51. A slightly revised and simplified version was adopted for use in P-51As modified for tactical reconnaissance use.

Compared to the RAF developed solution, way more complex and over engineered.

When used by USAAF P-51As in the ETO, when they also wanted the Malcolm Hood fitted, they had to adopt a much simplified oblique camera installation, very similar to the RAF one. As you can imagine, the Malcolm Hood is definitely not going to slide back past that original style blown quarter panel with all that supporting structure inside.

 

[N4521U]

Now THAT will be a chore, camera & blister???????
Never noticed That!!!!!!!!

 

[Snautzer01]

Excuse me, but has NO ONE corrected the info on this aircraft all this time.

Think that writer and member drgondog will think quite different about that as do I also

Suggest you search for his name here and be suprised.

 

[special ed]

The very first 51 turtle deck I saw up close was in Texas while wandering airports, hangars etc attending CAF AIRSHO 70. The fuselage was on a pallet and the window at the camera position was missing and some crude reinforcement installed. I recall it had a -3 engine. Some day when I have set the equipment to put slides on the computer, they can be posted.