P-51 Mustang Vs. Me 262

[Waynos]

the fai record of meteor was possible only why not fai record in war of germans jet planes

Do you think maybe they were otherwise occupied?

The real boost to Meteor performance came mainly from redesigning the engine nacelles, thats about the only major change from the F.3 to the F.4 (the model that set the record). The change from short to long nacelles was an easy field conversion if need be, so the low drag 1945 Meteor was every bit as fast as the 1945 262, if not moreso thanks to the more powerful engines
It is tempting to think from looking at the pics below that the F.4 had much bigger engines, in fact they were the same, but the longer nacelles greatly reduced drag and allowed higher speeds. The clipped wing of the F.4 pictured below also reduced drag and increased roll rate, but was not universally used on the day fighter Meteor until the F.8, and never on the NF series. The record setting F.4 stiill had the full span wing

 

[timshatz]

As i read the jet planes of WWII flying constantly at high throttle, so don't need many thtottle movemevent as piston planes.

never read of so short life of jumo 004 what's the source?

To tell the truth, it has been stated so often and from so many different sources that the actual details escape me.

My understanding was metals used in the manufacture had problems with the heat that the jet engines created. Germany, in the later part of the war, had problems producing the alloys due to mineral shortages.

As for going everywhere at full throttle, I could see your point if:
-you don't have to land
-you don't have to take off
-nothing happens when you are landing, taking off or while you are going anywhere.

Otherwise, you're going to need to monkey around with your throttle from time to time. Keep in mind, about half the losses an air force had during WW2 were operational. I would imagine that number would be a bit higher for the early jets as they were a new technology and the bugs/operational processes were still be worked out.

 

[Vincenzo]

Do you think maybe they were otherwise occupied?

The real boost to Meteor performance came mainly from redesigning the engine nacelles, thats about the only major change from the F.3 to the F.4 (the model that set the record). The change from short to long nacelles was an easy field conversion if need be, so the low drag 1945 Meteor was every bit as fast as the 1945 262, if not moreso thanks to the more powerful engines
It is tempting to think from looking at the pics below that the F.4 had much bigger engines, in fact they were the same, but the longer nacelles greatly reduced drag and allowed higher speeds. The clipped wing of the F.4 pictured below also reduced drag and increased roll rate, but was not universally used on the day fighter Meteor until the F.8, and never on the NF series. The record setting F.4 stiill had the full span wing

either 262 and 163 go to speed over 1000 km/h in war time

 

[Vincenzo]

To tell the truth, it has been stated so often and from so many different sources that the actual details escape me.

My understanding was metals used in the manufacture had problems with the heat that the jet engines created. Germany, in the later part of the war, had problems producing the alloys due to mineral shortages.

As for going everywhere at full throttle, I could see your point if:
-you don't have to land
-you don't have to take off
-nothing happens when you are landing, taking off or while you are going anywhere.

Otherwise, you're going to need to monkey around with your throttle from time to time. Keep in mind, about half the losses an air force had during WW2 were operational. I would imagine that number would be a bit higher for the early jets as they were a new technology and the bugs/operational processes were still be worked out.

i wait

i not told this only that comaparate to piston engine the early jets move less the throttle and they commonly go to high throttle (that is not full) and was obvious they need land take...

i dislike the changing others statement, i hope this is first, and for me the last

 

[Waynos]

Me 163 had a top speed of about 620mph, but is pretty worthless. The 262 top speed was 540mph with faster models projected, but unbuilt. I kind of think a 1946 Me 262 with developed engines but essentially the same airframe would have shown a 620mph top level speed at its best altitude.

Top seed of the Meteor F.3 was 490mph while the operational F.4 was 580mph, the record plane had its guns removed and gained 26mph. the following year another F.4 further raised the record to 616mph

These are 'best' speeds. Obviously altitudes affect speeds but are not required here as I am not talking about a 1 v 1 combat, only highest recorded level speeds.

 

[Vincenzo]

Wayanos we are talking of record flight your data on max speed of operational plane it's out. the first F 4 not flying after the end of development of 262?

 

[timshatz]

262 Engines details:
Wiki-
The BMW 003 jet engines, which were proving unreliable, were replaced by the newly available Junkers Jumo 004. Test flights continued over the next year, but the engines continued to be unreliable. Airframe modifications were complete by 1942, but hampered by the lack of engines, serial production did not begin until 1944, but deliveries were low with 28 Me 262s in June, 59 in July, but only 20 in August.[8] This delay in engine availability was in part due to the shortage of strategic materials, especially metals and alloys able to handle the extreme temperatures produced by the jet engine. Even when the engines were completed, they had an expected operational lifetime of approximately 50 continuous flight hours; in fact, most 004s lasted just 12 hours, even with adequate maintenance. A pilot familiar with the Me 262 and its engines could expect approximately 20–25 hours of life from the 004s.

That posting is representative of many articles/postings stating that the 003 engines were lousy wtih respect to reliability while the 004s were much better, they still lasted a very short time. Again, the point is about reliablity. And engine that lasts 20-25 hours is not reliable. Engines of today routinely get 10,000 hours of flight time. That is a reliable engine. 20-25 hours is not reliable.

On my end, my statement that the average life of the engines was 10 hours was incorrect. I was going on memory.

Lastly, full power, war emergency power, half power, it really doesn't matter. The problem is not the power but the changing of the power settings. When you fly, you change the settings all the time and the Jumos were succeptable to power setting changes so much so that the pilots were told to increase throttle very slowly in order to avoid a flameout. It is almost impossible to set the engines at any level and leave them there for a whole flight. It IS impossible for anyone flying in formation to fly with power settings unchanged. So, even if a pilot took off and flew a whole mission at one throttle setting (never heard of it done but for the sake of arguement we'll go on the assumption it happened in anything other than a rocket plane), he would have to do it solo as nobody else could fly with him without changing throttle settings constantly. To fly missions in a kette, the Luftwaffe pilots forming on the leader had to change throttle settings constantly (and very slowly) to stay in formation. The leader could make this a much simpler thing to do by being predictable and gradual in his changes of movement as well as broadcasting them when he did it to give his wingmen time to react.

 

[Waynos]

Wayanos we are talking of record flight your data on max speed of operational plane it's out. the first F 4 not flying after the end of development of 262?

What is it that is out? I'm not sure what you mean by that. The first F.4 flew on 14th May 1945, but the speed increase with the long chord nacelled had already been demonstrated on an F.1 before that and the last 15 production F.3's were completed with them too, so the faster Meteors did fly, in small numbers, before the end of the war.

Timshatz - you were not entirely wrong. The engine life had to be increased from 10 hours to 25 before the LW would accept the 262 for service, taken from Alfred Price's 'Last Year of the Luftwaffe'

 

[Messy1]

Interesting posts guys. Thanks for the info.

 

[red admiral]

Wayanos we are talking of record flight your data on max speed of operational plane it's out. the first F 4 not flying after the end of development of 262?

The FAI records were still given at sea level during this period which is where the 606mph and 616mph records come from for the Meteor F4. The Me 163 was faster at altitude, but that wouldn't count for the record. It wasn't till the mid 1950s that speeds had increased so much as to necessitate the changeover to maxmimum Mach at altitude.

 

[Cromwell]

Why are you trying to compare a Jet aircraft with a Piston aircraft?

OK - How about vote for Me262 vs Meteor

Only, like most everything else on this site, it has probably been done before - several times [sigh]

 

[Cromwell]

To tell the truth, it has been stated so often and from so many different sources that the actual details escape me.

My understanding was metals used in the manufacture had problems with the heat that the jet engines created. Germany, in the later part of the war, had problems producing the alloys due to mineral shortages.

OK, well strangely enough my Father - rest his soul - had quite a lot to do with Power Jets when the company was started by Whittle Co 45/46 (my Dad worked for the MoD but did not tell me much)

Anyhow, he did used to talk about using early computers to control cutting jet engine parts very slowly over weeks to ensure Micro-Nano accuracy to stop them flying apart due to tiny imbalances - at the RR factories in Derby UK and in Germany too.

(I actually have a book published by Powerjets from 1946)

Thing is this : Centrifugal impellers can be built onto, or cast from, or turned-up from BIG chunks of metal

So - they can be made with metals that are far less specialised without fear of flying apart.


I.E : RPM for the Whittle type engine was 16-17,000 RPM - Max for the BMW 003 about 8-9,000 - about half the max speed


German engines had Co-Axial Impellers and Turbines that were much Thinner and had to sit entirely immersed in the air / heat flow - very cold in some parts, very hot in others


So with time and immense centripedal forces they just flew apart - any slight crystaline / hair-cracks and whammo - game over.


The other thing with Co-axial engines is they get 'Creep' which means that over time they become unbalanced - even if they are standig completely still.


In the past commercial / military jet engines were sometimes being constantly turned over when the planes were at rest - like one revolution every 4-5 hours - or something like that. Not so sure now.


Picture of Centrifugal Engine

 

[Colin1]

OK, well strangely enough my Father - rest his soul - had quite a lot to do with Power Jets which was the company started by Whittle Co. He used to talk about using early computers to control cutting jet engine parts very slowly over weeks to ensure Micro-Nano accuracy

Nano-accuracy in the late 40s, that sounds interesting

 

[Cromwell]

Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the post Cromwell.

Thanks for the boost, Tim - you can see quite a lot on Airvectors and Wikipedia

Enter the VAMPIRE !


Another point is that the Vampire set some records too for Altitude (and possibly Climb Rate too momentarily)


1948, John Cunningham : world altitude record of 59,446 ft (18,119 m)


NB: The Vampy first flew in 1943 - 20 Sep actually


So you see, the Brits were not so badly behind the 'ze vunderful Germans' after all


Also the Vampire was easy to mass-produce - a lot of the parts were also made of wood like the Mosquito so it was possibly to use non-specialist factories to make some of the parts.

So my point is that in the event of the war going on for say another 1-2 years the Brits and allies, would have been knocking out LARGE quantities of Good Quality Jet Planes to give the old Luftwaffe another head-ache, thanks all the same.

 

[Cromwell]

The FAI records were still given at sea level during this period which is where the 606mph and 616mph records come from for the Meteor F4. The Me 163 was faster at altitude, but that wouldn't count for the record. It wasn't till the mid 1950s that speeds had increased so much as to necessitate the changeover to maxmimum Mach at altitude.

I think in reality the Me 163 was a rocket-plane that regularly dissolved its pilots in T-stoff * and C-stoff

( * 80% concentrated hydrogen peroxide / 20% oxyquinoline - NICE !!)

It could woosh its way up up and away, and then flutter back down to earth for a dodgy skid landing that also regularly killed pilots.

But really, was this a working military reaction-propulsion plane - or a fascinating rocket-plane for research ??


I mean 5 minutes up - then some gliding, and if the fuel does not turn you into biological soup - the landing will probably flip you over and break your neck.

Excellent - I want one for Christmas

 

[Cromwell]

I seem to be in a posting frenzy - So why change ?

Thing is this : There seems to an idea that all Allied stuff was stop-gap, not very well made, and only worked in large numbers.

Like saying the Sten Gun was useless - BUT recent tests comparing the MP40 with the Stens from say, 1944, show there was actually very little difference in the effective performance

Watch Battlefield Detectives series about Arnheim and you will see live firing comparisons between the MP40 and the Sten.

Granted the Sten was not pretty - and the MP40 was nicely machined and fitted.

The Sterling, which was developed from the Sten, in 46/47 was actually a very fine bit of kit (in service 51 or 53 depending on sources)

 

[Colin1]

Thing is this : There seems to an idea that all Allied stuff was stop-gap, not very well made, and only worked in large numbers.

Granted the Sten was not pretty - and the MP40 was nicely machined and fitted.

The Sterling, which was developed from the Sten, in 46/47 was actually a very fine bit of kit (in service 51 or 53 depending on sources)

I've not noticed that sentiment C, presumably you mean outside of the forum

I thought the MP40 was pressed, not machined (my knowledge is limited in this area)

Do you mean the SMG that they used in Star Wars with the stocks folded? Used them through apprentice college 78 - 80 then never saw them again. They were still out there but were issued to complexes and anyone else who might have to fight close in.

 

[timshatz]

Great posts Cromwell, especially about the differences about the two engines. I was not aware of the differences in that light. Very interesting. As I am a relative novice on Jet Engines (I know how they work in principle but that doesn't mean squat in the real world), where do Turbofans fit in. Any link I can go to for a comparison to co-axle or are they the same?

On another note, somebody on the board used to use a Sterling and had a low opinion of it. Said something like it was useless for everything but opening beer bottles or some such. I can't remember. It might've been Airframes or one of those guys who were in the British Army in the 70s.

 

[Vincenzo]

The FAI records were still given at sea level during this period which is where the 606mph and 616mph records come from for the Meteor F4. The Me 163 was faster at altitude, but that wouldn't count for the record. It wasn't till the mid 1950s that speeds had increased so much as to necessitate the changeover to maxmimum Mach at altitude.

idk what altitude were flying that speed test and it's possible and also probable that were highest of FAI at time regolamentation

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Guys, all great info, but remember all this doesn't preclude the fact that all these early jets were not great "accelerators" and flew into combat with high power settings. The Meteor was fast for its day but wasn't a great "roller." The Vampire, had a slow responding engine typical of the period, but built up speed quicker because of its lighter weight and was more maneuverable - but here's the key - the amount of energy these aircraft could maintain and develop during combat. The extra 5 or 6 mph difference in speed is not going to mean too much if one aircraft can use energy to accelerate away.