P-51 rc plane restoration for museum and tribute to Bill Getz
- Thread starter davegee
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![354 WRBbar_Jane III_Marshall_sep1944 [marshall].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/157/157781-2dc9ee875f5c4dea4e2ee90866acbd5f.jpg)
- Thread starter
- #22
Hi Drgondog: That is a great picture! From the looks of it, it is one of the fighters from the 355th FG, and the bar below the B to me would tell me that there was another plane in the squadron already there with a B, so this differentiated the two. The WR would denote the 354th Fighter Squadron. Teh partial removal of the D-Day invasion stripes would place the picture taken in the fall of 1944, would be my guess.
You'll note a couple of interesting things about Bill's plane that I included on the model. One is that there is a bar above the WR, denoting it to be a 2nd Air Division Scouting airplane attached to the 354th Fighter Squadron, versus a regular fighter plane from that squadron. Also, the cowl is painted an unusual bright green, which I verified through records and Bill himself, that planes in just this one squadron were painted up with the bright green cowls.
The drop tanks on the plane in your photo appear to me to be steel, versus the silver painted paper tanks that were manufactured in England. Bill routinely flew with the paper 110 gal. drop tanks that were required to make the deep penetrations into Germany with the bomber stream. Bill told me that if they did not encounter enemy fighters, (and they were not supposed to take them on unless attacked, themselves) they flew back to base with the tanks on as there was a shortage of them at the time.
Thanks for the picture, it is great!
davegee
You'll note a couple of interesting things about Bill's plane that I included on the model. One is that there is a bar above the WR, denoting it to be a 2nd Air Division Scouting airplane attached to the 354th Fighter Squadron, versus a regular fighter plane from that squadron. Also, the cowl is painted an unusual bright green, which I verified through records and Bill himself, that planes in just this one squadron were painted up with the bright green cowls.
The drop tanks on the plane in your photo appear to me to be steel, versus the silver painted paper tanks that were manufactured in England. Bill routinely flew with the paper 110 gal. drop tanks that were required to make the deep penetrations into Germany with the bomber stream. Bill told me that if they did not encounter enemy fighters, (and they were not supposed to take them on unless attacked, themselves) they flew back to base with the tanks on as there was a shortage of them at the time.
Thanks for the picture, it is great!
davegee
drgondog
Major
While Bill is correct about 'not attacking unless attacked' the 2SF were involved in a huge battle on November 26, 1944 in which a seven plane scout force section was the last thing between a group of B-24s and annihilation, and John Brooks took another section to attack two 50+ gaggles of 109s near Leipzig - Bill Whalen became only Scout Force ace in that fight and Brooks got the DSC
When that picture above was taken dad was both 354 CO as well as 355th Deputy Group CO, wearing both hats until Gordy Graham was ready to take the squadron after Lenfest got stuck in mud trying to rescue Henry Brown..
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Great looking model Dave. I was going to ask about the bright green cowling, but you explained first !
- Thread starter
- #25
Hi Drgondog: that is great stuff! What was (is?) your dad's name? Perhaps Bill knows/remembers him. Bill points out very clearly that he was a bomber pilot flying a fighter, NOT a fighter pilot. He says there was a huge difference in mental attitudes between bomber and fighter pilots, and I would agree, from many I have talked with over the years. Bill had already completed 31 missions as an A/C in the B-24 with the 491st BG, but didn't want to come home while his older brother, a doctor in Patton's third army, was still in theater fighting. So, Bill volunteered for the Scouts. (He said ONE tour in bombers was frightening enough!!)
The Scouts were accompanied by regular fighter pilots, a task that they (the fighter pilots) did not enjoy doing, sort of like babysitting the Scouts. However, on one occasion, Bill did see two Me-262s flying nearby, shadowing the bomber stream. One peeled away, while the other made a run in on the bombers. Bill was in a position to attack from an advantage and chased him down, vertically. He scored several hits, and possibly a kill, or at least damaged. When Bill returned from his mission, the CO had a congratulations telegram for him on the "kill." (I have seen this telegram myself.) The kill has not been officially recorded, so we'll never know for sure if indeed that plane crashed. At the least, Bill chased it off and damaged it, preventing it damaging or destroying many bombers.
You're right about dropping tanks, of course. If you get into a fracas, one of the first things you did would be to "pickle" the tanks. But on many of Bill's missions he was not directly under fire and he often returned home with the tanks attached.
Bill returned home, and celebrated his 21st birthday! He went on to have a distinguished career with the air force, retiring in 1960 working in the missile command under Gen. Bernard Schriever and retiring as a Lt. Colonel.
I'd be very much interested in hearing more about your dad, and his experience in WWII. I don't know much about the 355th; my favorite groups flew jugs, like the 56th FG, of which I am an associate member of their association. This is the first P-51 rc plane I have built. It is a very cool plane, and will always be an iconic example of one of the most classic aircraft ever designed and built.
davegee
The Scouts were accompanied by regular fighter pilots, a task that they (the fighter pilots) did not enjoy doing, sort of like babysitting the Scouts. However, on one occasion, Bill did see two Me-262s flying nearby, shadowing the bomber stream. One peeled away, while the other made a run in on the bombers. Bill was in a position to attack from an advantage and chased him down, vertically. He scored several hits, and possibly a kill, or at least damaged. When Bill returned from his mission, the CO had a congratulations telegram for him on the "kill." (I have seen this telegram myself.) The kill has not been officially recorded, so we'll never know for sure if indeed that plane crashed. At the least, Bill chased it off and damaged it, preventing it damaging or destroying many bombers.
You're right about dropping tanks, of course. If you get into a fracas, one of the first things you did would be to "pickle" the tanks. But on many of Bill's missions he was not directly under fire and he often returned home with the tanks attached.
Bill returned home, and celebrated his 21st birthday! He went on to have a distinguished career with the air force, retiring in 1960 working in the missile command under Gen. Bernard Schriever and retiring as a Lt. Colonel.
I'd be very much interested in hearing more about your dad, and his experience in WWII. I don't know much about the 355th; my favorite groups flew jugs, like the 56th FG, of which I am an associate member of their association. This is the first P-51 rc plane I have built. It is a very cool plane, and will always be an iconic example of one of the most classic aircraft ever designed and built.
davegee
- Thread starter
- #26
Hi Airframes: Yes, I did a "double take" when Bill first told me about the color of the cowls of his squadron. To be honest, I had never heard of the Scouting Forces before I met Bill several years ago. I remember confirming with Bill and through a few history books describing his aircraft as having bright green cowls painted on their planes before I was comfortable painting it this color. Bill confirms that this is the nearly exact color his planes were painted back then.
davegee
davegee
- Thread starter
- #27
Regarding Henry Brown: Unknown to Bill, Brown had been shot down and made POW before Bill arrived with the Scouts. Brown had used the same squadron code letters WR-Z that Bill's plane used, and Bill often wondered if German pilots might have purposely avoided him, thinking that super-ace Brown was flying that airplane! Bill later exchanged some letters with Brown after the war, and Brown sent him a card saying " from one WR-Z driver, to another."
davegee
davegee
- Thread starter
- #28
drgondog
Major
Dave - The names of the three squadrons were Bulldogs, Dragons and Angels. I wrote my first book "Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons - History of the 355th FG in WWII" in 1984. I just signed a contract with Schiffer to publish "Our Might Always - Histrory of the 355th FG, TFW and FW - Volume I" It will cover WWII with an Intro to Vietnam. I have included a nice piece written by Bill Getz in the Appendix ("Tales of a Teen Age Warrior"), and have about 10 pages on the Experimental and 2nd SF at Steeple Morden.
I am President of the 355th FG Association which is an All Generation Association of the 355th from WWWII through today. The Bulldogs (354) and Dragons (357) live today but the 358th renamed to Lobos' after Vietnam. We will be having our Reunion at Davis Monthan in late October this year and the Wing is going all out for the older vets with firepower demos, A-10 simulators, A-10 flybys and we will have some surprise birds from afar to take some guys from WWII, Vietnam and current wing for a ride.
We had one English Bulldog growing up but were mostly a Golden Retriever and big Poodle family growing up but I went with Irish Wolfhounds.
Yes, I know the 355th pretty well. Bill knew my father Bert Marshall also.
Regards Dave - and thank you for what you are doing for Bill G - he REALLY appreciates it!
Bill Marshall
I am President of the 355th FG Association which is an All Generation Association of the 355th from WWWII through today. The Bulldogs (354) and Dragons (357) live today but the 358th renamed to Lobos' after Vietnam. We will be having our Reunion at Davis Monthan in late October this year and the Wing is going all out for the older vets with firepower demos, A-10 simulators, A-10 flybys and we will have some surprise birds from afar to take some guys from WWII, Vietnam and current wing for a ride.
We had one English Bulldog growing up but were mostly a Golden Retriever and big Poodle family growing up but I went with Irish Wolfhounds.
Yes, I know the 355th pretty well. Bill knew my father Bert Marshall also.
Regards Dave - and thank you for what you are doing for Bill G - he REALLY appreciates it!
Bill Marshall
drgondog
Major
Interesting linkages.. Dad's first P-51D WRB Jane II was damaged by flak, needed a new wing and canopy, on Aug 15th. He flew WR-F Lorie V 44-13950 on August 18th - Chuck Lenfest's ship and then 354FS Ops Officer. Dad was shot down ne Paris strafing a M/Y and was subsequently rescued by Royce Priest for the first Piggy Back rescue. Doolittle issues strong worded order to 'don't do this again'.
On October 3, 1944 Lenfest was flying dad's Mustang (WRB Jane III 44-14409 when Henry Brown was shot down by flak near Nordlingen after getting his 28th+ score. Lenfest landed trying for another pick up and got stuck in the mud. Future NAA Chief Test Pilot Al White lands close by try to give up His ship to Brown and Lenfest but they don't see him - and he takes off alone - leaving WRZ and WRB in the field - then strafed them both.
Lenfest's WR-F was damaged strafing on October 28 and returned to be Gordon Graham's "Down fo Double".
Brown's WRZ 44-13305 was inherited from Kinnard, when Kinnard was transferred to 4th FG to eventually take over for Blakeslee.
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- #31
Hi Bill: that is really great! I would like to purchase your books, first, History of 355th FG in WWII, and especially your upcoming book with Schiffer. Do you have any general idea when that might be published?
For me, and probably you, too, this generation of heroes is very special indeed. My own dad flew B-24s with the 446th BG out of Bungay, and then transferred to the 482nd BG flying B-24s and B-17s out of Alconbury. He flew B-29s in Korea, and then transitioned to B-47s, where unfortunately he was killed in an accident in one in 1956. My father-in-law flew 36 combat missions with the 351st BG out of Polebrook, C-124s and C-46s in Korea, and then got out of the air force. He is still around today, and will be present at Bill's ceremony on September 24.
Over the past several years as I discovered the r/c warbird world, I have done similar projects, mostly P-47s that flew in competitions and then were donated to museums around the country. It has been one of the best things in life for me to connect with these old warriors, many of whom have passed away in the last few years. It's the least I can do for these great guys...
davegee
For me, and probably you, too, this generation of heroes is very special indeed. My own dad flew B-24s with the 446th BG out of Bungay, and then transferred to the 482nd BG flying B-24s and B-17s out of Alconbury. He flew B-29s in Korea, and then transitioned to B-47s, where unfortunately he was killed in an accident in one in 1956. My father-in-law flew 36 combat missions with the 351st BG out of Polebrook, C-124s and C-46s in Korea, and then got out of the air force. He is still around today, and will be present at Bill's ceremony on September 24.
Over the past several years as I discovered the r/c warbird world, I have done similar projects, mostly P-47s that flew in competitions and then were donated to museums around the country. It has been one of the best things in life for me to connect with these old warriors, many of whom have passed away in the last few years. It's the least I can do for these great guys...
davegee
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- #32
drgondog
Major
Dave - some great pics of 56th birds.. sorry about your dad..
Growing up I was used to friends losing fathers and had three near misses of my own. Dad was dead heading on a B-29 to Guam to pick up and lead a squadron of P-80's on June 23 1950. The pilot got lost in an incoming Typhoon and they ran out of fuel 200 miles past Guam. AF had SAR all over the place but a Destroyer was the one that found them on the 29th.
Had the Base CO and Chaplin routine at the front door with my mother firmly telling them not to worry "he will be OK" - and he was.
The next time, just after taxiing onto the active in an F-86D at Eglin, his engine blew up when he lit the AB, and those ships did not have zero-zero - and I was in the tower watching.. manual crank on canopy, road runner over the side and down the ramp - then it blew up.
A year later he was climbing out with a stab-aug faiure on a F-100A which went into a roll - and he had to time the puch out because he was too close to the ground - open/one swing and into the Firepower demo range and that good north florida sandy soil. Then he heads west after his pancreas blew up following a stroke in 1979.. go figure.
Growing up I was used to friends losing fathers and had three near misses of my own. Dad was dead heading on a B-29 to Guam to pick up and lead a squadron of P-80's on June 23 1950. The pilot got lost in an incoming Typhoon and they ran out of fuel 200 miles past Guam. AF had SAR all over the place but a Destroyer was the one that found them on the 29th.
Had the Base CO and Chaplin routine at the front door with my mother firmly telling them not to worry "he will be OK" - and he was.
The next time, just after taxiing onto the active in an F-86D at Eglin, his engine blew up when he lit the AB, and those ships did not have zero-zero - and I was in the tower watching.. manual crank on canopy, road runner over the side and down the ramp - then it blew up.
A year later he was climbing out with a stab-aug faiure on a F-100A which went into a roll - and he had to time the puch out because he was too close to the ground - open/one swing and into the Firepower demo range and that good north florida sandy soil. Then he heads west after his pancreas blew up following a stroke in 1979.. go figure.
- Thread starter
- #34
Military flying has always been a dangerous business, with pilots continually hanging it out to the very edge and back. I salute all of them, past and present, who have defended our freedoms. It's sad we have lost so many, during war and in peace. But they will always be remembered.
davegee
davegee
- Thread starter
- #35
Hi Bill: I noticed on your name info on the left border of blogs you send that your location is Scurry, TX. Are you living there now? If so, that is a happy coincidence as my son-in-law's parents both moved there last year. The dad (retired USA Ranger) is a principal of a high school, and the mom is still active duty Army down there. Just curious.
Dave
Dave
drgondog
Major
Yes it is - we live just off south 148 about 1.6 miles south of 34. The high schoolis about 1.6 miles from us and my sister is looking for part time teaching jobs -
We came back to TX last year from a ranch in OR and glad to be back - but miss the winter/spring rain and cool summer nights.
Bill
We came back to TX last year from a ranch in OR and glad to be back - but miss the winter/spring rain and cool summer nights.
Bill
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- #37
Hi Bill: could you come up on my private email [email protected]? I have an email address of my son-in-law's dad that you or your sister might get some leads for possible part time teaching jobs in the Scurry area. I can give you the emails on a discrete email, rather than this public forum.
davegee
davegee
drgondog
Major
Dave - I sent an email this morning titled 'contact' and it didn't come back - i'll try again tomorrow am.
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- #39
Hi All: I just finished the drop tanks and connecting tubing for the Saucy Shirley model. I'll attach some pics. I can thank my friend Chad Veich who actually made the tanks for me. I then added the brass framework, connecting tubing, and painting and weathering details. Since these tanks were so important to the success of our fighters making all the way into Germany and back, I thought it important to include them in the display. If you look closely, you'll see the glass tube sections that were designed to break cleanly away when the tank was jettisoned in flight.
davegee
davegee
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drgondog
Major
Very well done. Chad is definitely a pro. I have watched his work on rcscalebuilder.com for 10 years
