P-61 alternatives

[pinehilljoe]

Were any USAAF studies or prototypes made of trying to fit the APS-4 radar into a single place fighter like the P-51 or P-47, similar to the deployment in the F4U-4N or F6F-3N. The P-38M was late to the War.

 

[swampyankee]

Were any USAAF studies or prototypes made of trying to fit the APS-4 radar into a single place fighter like the P-51 or P-47, similar to the deployment in the F4U-4N or F6F-3N. The P-38M was late to the War.

I suspect not, for two reasons. One is that the USAAF didn't have quite the constraints on aircraft size, weight, and runway needs as did the USN, so they had little incentive to constrain themselves to a single-engine aircraft. The second reason, which is much more speculative, is that the USN night fighters seemed to be more defensive in their application, as night CAP aircraft, vs the USAAF night fighters, at least in Europe, which seemed to operate more in direct support of offensive operations. I'm quite willing to be corrected by someone with actual knowledge of this, as I've just read a couple of articles about US night fighter operations, so vast knowledge is not something I have on this particular topic. I think it's interesting that the USN did have at least a couple of two-seat night/all-weather fighters post-WW2, for example the F7F-2N and the Douglas F3D.

 

[jmcalli2]

I suspect not, for two reasons. One is that the USAAF didn't have quite the constraints on aircraft size, weight, and runway needs as did the USN, so they had little incentive to constrain themselves to a single-engine aircraft. The second reason, which is much more speculative, is that the USN night fighters seemed to be more defensive in their application, as night CAP aircraft, vs the USAAF night fighters, at least in Europe, which seemed to operate more in direct support of offensive operations. I'm quite willing to be corrected by someone with actual knowledge of this, as I've just read a couple of articles about US night fighter operations, so vast knowledge is not something I have on this particular topic. I think it's interesting that the USN did have at least a couple of two-seat night/all-weather fighters post-WW2, for example the F7F-2N and the Douglas F3D.

Only one thing to add to that; I remember reading (but not the name of the book!) of many P-61 night interdiction missions in Europe, especially against rail yards and trains.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,

The 547th Night Fighter Squadron had at least 2 single seat P-38J's equipped with APS-4 radar. The aircraft were modified at the depot in Townsville, Australia. Although they were credited with one of the squadron's 7 victories, they were not considered successful as night fighters, but useful as night intruders.

Eagledad

Source Queen of the Midnight Skies, pages 235 and 236. Victories found on page 356.

 

[swampyankee]

The P-38 Lightning would probably be the easiest single-seat, albeit twin-engine, US fighter to put a radar into; the single-engine fighters all needed the radar to be installed in a pod on one wing, and probably had to have quite a bit of rearrangement to stuff the electronics into the fuselage. For the P-38, it would be comparitively straightforward to install the radar into a nose radome and enlarge the pod to accommodate the electronics.

As an aside, I think that the USAAF would have had a better night fighter had the turret and gunner had been designed out of the aircraft. Even sticking with the twin-boom format (generally sub-optimal due to excessive wetted area), something like the P-61E would likely be equally effective and significantly faster.

 

[GrauGeist]

The P-82 was equipped with the APS-4 (and later versions) although it was a bit late to the war.

A good alternative to the P-61, though, may have been the XP-58 f it weren't for the troublesome engines and the ridiculous flip-flopping on the armament configurations (which rivals the RLM's reputation) that took too long to resolve.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The P-82 was equipped with the APS-4 (and later versions) although it was a bit late to the war.

A good alternative to the P-61, though, may have been the XP-58 f it weren't for the troublesome engines and the ridiculous flip-flopping on the armament configurations (which rivals the RLM's reputation) that took too long to resolve.

When I worked at Lockheed I met a guy who worked on the XP-58. He said it was a maintenance nightmare but when it worked it flew like a bat out of hell.

 

[wuzak]

As an aside, I think that the USAAF would have had a better night fighter had the turret and gunner had been designed out of the aircraft. Even sticking with the twin-boom format (generally sub-optimal due to excessive wetted area), something like the P-61E would likely be equally effective and significantly faster.

The XP-61E wasn't a lot faster than the P-61A/B, maybe 7 or 8mph.

 

[Milosh]

For comparison

 

[jmcalli2]

The XP-61E wasn't a lot faster than the P-61A/B, maybe 7 or 8mph.

The P-61E used the same engines as the P-61B I believe.
The real screamer was the XP-61F version using the P-61C turbocharged engines; it was pegged for 440mph vs the P-61C's 430. With cameras instead of armament it was the F-15 reporter.

It is a credit to the Northrup design team that the three-crewed, turreted P-61 night fighter versions were only ~10mph slower than the comparable two-seat day fighter versions.

 

[Conslaw]

The "C" series turbosupercharged engines in the P-61C (similar to those in the P-47N) solved the performance problems of the P-61, finally fast enough (430 MPH), with a good climb rate and ceiling (41,000 ft). That being said, the P-61C continued the slightly-snakebitten fate of the P-61 in general because the first production version of the P-61C was just delivered in July 1945, and arrived at the front just too late for service during the war.

 

[wuzak]

The P-61E used the same engines as the P-61B I believe.
The real screamer was the XP-61F version using the P-61C turbocharged engines; it was pegged for 440mph vs the P-61C's 430. With cameras instead of armament it was the F-15 reporter.

I don't think that there was an XP-61F.

The first XF-15 was converted from the first XP-61E (the second having being written off in a take-off crash).

The second XF-15 was converted from a P-61C.

 

[jmcalli2]

I don't think that there was an XP-61F.

The first XF-15 was converted from the first XP-61E (the second having being written off in a take-off crash).

The second XF-15 was converted from a P-61C.

The F was the proposed fighter version of the F-15. Think of the C with the E fuselage. It was not built, as the P-82 was chosen as the long range escort fighter.

 

[Koopernic]

Were any USAAF studies or prototypes made of trying to fit the APS-4 radar into a single place fighter like the P-51 or P-47, similar to the deployment in the F4U-4N or F6F-3N. The P-38M was late to the War.

The night fighter version of the Douglass A20 Havoc known as the P70 might have been fitted with PW R-2800 engines. With 18% more power and less drag due to the smaller diameter engines it should have a decent performance. I suspect 350mph. Fitting navy two stage supercharger engines even more. The A26 Invader seems a good candidate as well.

The Germans tried radar on the Me 109 and Fw 190. The pilot could tell range and approximately how far up/down left/right the target was but they found staring into an abstract oscilloscope destroyed his precious night vision. I really don't know how the USN got around this. The radar would have to be so good the pilot didn't need night vision.

 

[Zipper730]

J jmcalli2

How were interdictions done at night?

 

[Milosh]

Fw had a NF 190 but never came across a 109 NF.

 

[GrauGeist]

Fw had a NF 190 but never came across a 109 NF.
View attachment 601825

Agreed - the /R11 Fw190s were radar equipped, the Bf109s were radar directed (no radar equipment aboard).

 

[BiffF15]

Fw had a NF 190 but never came across a 109 NF.
View attachment 601825

Any of these left?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[swampyankee]

The night fighter version of the Douglass A20 Havoc known as the P70 might have been fitted with PW R-2800 engines. With 18% more power and less drag due to the smaller diameter engines it should have a decent performance. I suspect 350mph. Fitting navy two stage supercharger engines even more. The A26 Invader seems a good candidate as well.

The Germans tried radar on the Me 109 and Fw 190. The pilot could tell range and approximately who far up/down left/right the target was but they found staring into an abstract oscilloscope destroyed his precious night vision. I really don't know how the USN got around this. The radar would have to be so good the pilot didn't need night vision.

There are red phosphors for CRTs, although I don't know if they were used at the time.

 

[pbehn]

There are red phosphors for CRTs, although I don't know if they were used at the time.

We used to put lightly exposed radiographic film over the screen to darken it but it only partly solves the issue, I could still see a green line for hours after finishing work every time I shut my eyes.