P-80 escort

[Jenisch]

Or would have been considered necessary. Certainly, the B-36 qualified as an unusual project, especially as its development started in something like 1942.

The problems of flight at high speeds were subject to serious investigation well before WW2: in the 1930s there was an international conference (in Italy) entitled "High Velocities in Aviation" (it was the Fifth Volta conference, in 1935). During this conference, the NACA representative (Eastmann Jacobs) presented Schlieren photographs, data from the NACA High Speed Wind Tunnel, etc Theodore von Karman (Caltech GALCIT, the predecessor of JPL) also got to go. Busemann presented a paper analyzing swept wings (with supersonic edges); Betz noted that swept wings would also be beneficial for transonic flight (around M=1, where there are local areas of supersonic flow, but the freestream velocity is subsonic). Robert T Jones (the aerodynamicist, not the golf course designer) published his paper about the analysis of swept wings during WW2. In other words, the NACA in the US and likely the UK (which had its fluid guys: google James Lighthill) knew the benefits of swept wings. This doesn't mean that industry had been paying attention, though: propeller aircraft were too slow to worry much transonic flow except in dives, and the P-80 -- the P-80A was just about as fast as the Me262 -- seems to have had superior airfoils, so sweep was unnecessary. This permits a lighter wing, as the structural length of a wing depends on 1/cos(sweep). An unswept wing also precludes a lot of negative flight control characteristics at high angles of attack.

Thanks swampyankee.

Something about the F-86:

North American had produced the highly successful propeller-powered P-51 Mustang in World War II, which saw combat against some of the first operational jet fighters. By late 1944, North American proposed its first jet fighter to the U.S. Navy which became the FJ-1 Fury. It was an unexceptional transitional jet fighter which had a straight wing derived from the P-51.[4][5] Initial proposals to meet a United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) requirement for a medium-range, single-seat, high-altitude jet-powered day escort fighter/fighter bomber were drafted in mid-1944.[6] In early 1945, North American Aviation submitted four designs.[6] The USAAF selected one design over the others, and granted North American a contract to build three examples of the XP-86 (eXperimental Pursuit). Deleting specific requirements from the FJ-1 Fury, coupled with other modifications, allowed the XP-86 to be lighter and considerably faster than the Fury, with an estimated top speed of 582 mph (937 km/h), versus the Fury's 547 mph (880 km/h).[6] Despite the gain in speed, early studies revealed the XP-86 would have the same performance as its rivals, the XP-80 and XP-84. It was also feared that, because these designs were more advanced in their development stages, the XP-86 would be canceled.
Crucially, the XP-86 would not be able to meet the required top speed of 600 mph (970 km/h);[7] North American had to quickly come up with a radical change that could leapfrog it over its rivals. The North American F-86 Sabre was the first American aircraft to take advantage of flight research data seized from the German aerodynamicists at the end of the war.[8] This data showed that a thin swept wing could greatly reduce drag and delay compressibility problems which had bedeviled even prop-powered fighters such as the Lockheed P-38 Lightning approaching the speed of sound. By 1944, German engineers and designers had established the benefits of swept wings based on experimental designs dating back to 1940. Study of the data showed that a swept wing would solve their speed problem, while a slat on the wing's leading edge which extended at low speeds would enhance low-speed stability.
Because development of the XP-86 had reached an advanced stage, the idea of changing the sweep of the wing was met with resistance from some senior North American staff. Despite stiff opposition, after good test results were obtained in wind tunnel tests, the swept-wing concept was eventually adopted. Performance requirements were met by incorporating a 35° swept-back wing, using NACA 4-digit modified airfoils, using NACA 0009.5-64 at the root and NACA 0008.5-64 at the tip,[9] with an automatic slat design based on that of the Messerschmitt Me 262 and an electrically adjustable stabilizer, another feature of the Me 262A.[10][11][12] It should be noted that many Sabres had the "6-3 wing" (a fixed-leading edge with 6 inches extended chord at the root and 3 inches extended chord at the tip) retrofitted after combat experience was gained in Korea.[10][13] This modification changed the wing airfoils to the NACA 0009-64 mod at the root and the NACA 0008.1-64 mod at the tip.[9]
Delays caused by the major redesign meant that manufacturing did not begin until after World War II. The XP-86 prototype, which would lead to the F-86 Sabre, was rolled out on 8 August 1947

North American F-86 Sabre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again there's a mention about German data being used in benefit of the project. swampyankee, this is a total myth in your view?

 

[pattern14]

I forgot to mention that aerodynamically, the Me 163 Komet was superior to everything, and no one has mentioned the influence Dr Lippisch had on the development of the F86. And we all know that Boeing used German research on swept wings to get their B47 in the air.

 

[Jenisch]

The question isn't that the German research was used. But actually how much time it would take to do without it. You see, in the Cold War the West was in many aspects superior to the Soviets in things like electronics. This did not meant that the Soviets could not compete with their planes. Some advantage will always exist.

 

[davebender]

If swept wing He-162C can achieve a level speed of 600mph then 1945 Germany has little incentive to continue development of Ta-183 or any other jet fighter. Nothing superior is likely to enter service before 1950.

 

[swampyankee]

Thanks swampyankee.

Something about the F-86:



North American F-86 Sabre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again there's a mention about German data being used in benefit of the project. swampyankee, this is a total myth in your view?

No; I don't think it's a total myth. The engineers at NAA may not have been aware of pre-war theoretical aerodynamics research, or they may have considered it unimportant, and ignored it until they saw it applied by the Germans.

 

[GregP]

From what I have read, once we saw the swept wing, we started looking into it. After the war, we used the German data so we would not have to re-do the same tests. It wasn't a question of not being able ... it was a question of why they should go to the expense of replicating the tests when the data is right in front of you, albeit in German.

We flew the Me 262 after the war, the He162, and AR 234. We learned what we could and applied it to new designs. We did not produce any WWII German jet design I know of except for the V-1, which we reverse engineered as the Loon.

The Soviets made planes that mimicked the Me 262 (Sukhoi Su-9/11 Samolyuet K / KL) and Ar 234 (Ilyushin Il-22), but we didn't.

 

[riacrato]

The Ta 183 was Multhopp's project not Tank's. As for it being a total piece of crap. Based on what? It was still in conceptual state for God's sake. We don't even know which of the three designs would've eventually been produced.

Tank's Pulqui 2 has about as much to do with it as the Tunnan or MiG 15.

 

[GregP]

If I recall correctly, the tiny horizontal tail on top of the Ta 183 fin was fixed ... that is no elevators. The elevators were located where you would normally see the ailerons, with the ailerons inboard of that location.. It was basically a flying wing with a small fixed stabilizer from what I have read about it.

The Pulqui II and the MiG-15, on the other hand, both had conventional horizontal stabilizer and elevators. Hard to say they were copies of anything, but there are, after all, only so many layouts for a single-jet aircraft, and they superficially kind of look similar to the Ta 183 in some ways. I seriously doubt they were similar otherwise, particularly in systems or flight characteristics since the two later jets were conventional and were not flying wings.

The Ta 183 might have been a nasty shock to the Allies or to the test pilot ... hard to say. Early jets were fraught with problems of the aeridynamic type, especially as speeds went up. Many flying wing type jets killed pepole in the late 1940's - 1950's.

 

[silence]

If I recall correctly, the tiny horizontal tail on top of the Ta 183 fin was fixed ... that is no elevators. The elevators were located where you would normally see the ailerons, with the ailerons inboard of that location.. It was basically a flying wing with a small fixed stabilizer from what I have read about it.

For what its worth the model of the Ta-183 I have sitting next to me has ailerons and elevators in the conventional places.

 

[Milosh]

You recall incorrectly Greg.

 

[razor1uk]

Google isn't always 'the' friend, it can lie and report back too Milosh - so how big are those flap like things on the rear of that tailplane Milo? they are quiye small for the tail area and very small compared to the wing area with a short longitudinal distance of moment too, oh and that image isn't a wartime blueprint, but a modern creation; likely on autocad or similar software.

 

[pattle]

The Swedes used borrowed captured German technology to help create their Saab Tunnan, and it looked rather like the Ta 183. The Saab was not a copy of the Tank design but you can certainly see a Tank influence in it's shape.

 

[razor1uk]

If your going to make a single engined jet with, that isn't roughly he.162 or yak9/11/15 shaped, then its going to be look akin to a mig15, ta183-III or mirageIII/convair102/104 in some way if you squint at its design in anyway.

Close up details, designs of internal structures and systems and internal equipments are going to be different unless the same design team worked for everyone. Then the manufacturing methods and toolings, these have some effect upon the look and details of a design too. With only so m any ways to skin a cat (so to speak,) a skinned cat looks like a skinned rabbit, or a small skinned dog or skinned skunk.

While its sure that some germans shared the info, and some was extracted from their academic papers, I think its easier for the allies post war to help create some of this to foster better relations within their own populations towards and for the federalised german republic to become accepted into the coldwar allies - just see what the us's airforce did to deture hype about a prototype crash in new mexico in 47 and how that got so out of hand when secrecy and treason laws meant they had to let the chinese whispers/rumour mill run as a misdirection.

 

[cimmex]

Google isn't always 'the' friend, it can lie and report back too Milosh - so how big are those flap like things on the rear of that tailplane Milo? they are quiye small for the tail area and very small compared to the wing area with a short longitudinal distance of moment too, oh and that image isn't a wartime blueprint, but a modern creation; likely on autocad or similar software.

Most pictures you find via Google are once published in a book. I'm sure I have a book with that pic among others dated 1944. You think the elevators are too small, how large it should be on a high speed fighter, this is not a plane for acrobatics.
cimmex

 

[vinnye]

Could the RAF not have had the Gloster E28/39 available sooner to counter the LW jets?
It is usually accepted that the Me262 would have had the edge in a contest with the Meteor.
If the single engined E28/39 been developed more quickly and more powerful engines been fitted - how would it have done?

 

[razor1uk]

How small should they be for landing in less than abnormally calm gusting or turbulent conditions, while retaining area enough for apt and effective control unless they wanted lots of piloted ploughs?
Ok the size is limited partially in that design by the structural possibilities of making the fin strong enough and yet have aerodynamic smoothness and with room for all the elevator related controls, which aren't drawn in - the 183 was still being designed in detail and was largely just a very advanced concept.
Balsa and tissue models had roughly proven its general slow speed unscaled CoG and basic fixed surfaces handling I grant you, but much was still not close to finalisation - hence the designs 'II' 'III' possibilities should they learn the tail of the 'I' was unsound/ill-concieved.
What differences there are between the proposed 183 and the argentinian dart/arrow should be highlighting enough from roughly the same design team.

 

[Milosh]

The drawing could be by A.L. Bentley who has a very good reputation for producing authentic drawings.

Since you don't like the drawing razor, I suggest you look at the 2cd wind tunnel model of the Ta183 where the elevator is clearly shown just, as in the drawing.

anyways here is another,

 

[Shortround6]

If your going to make a single engined jet with, that isn't roughly he.162 or yak9/11/15 shaped, then its going to be look akin to a mig15, ta183-III or mirageIII/convair102/104 in some way if you squint at its design in anyway.

Close up details, designs of internal structures and systems and internal equipments are going to be different unless the same design team worked for everyone. Then the manufacturing methods and toolings, these have some effect upon the look and details of a design too. With only so m any ways to skin a cat (so to speak,) a skinned cat looks like a skinned rabbit, or a small skinned dog or skinned skunk.

Quite true, especially if you are using a early centrifugal jet engine of over 3 1/2 feet in diameter.

You have roughly 3 (or 3 1/2) choices.

The TA-183/Mig 15 shape with wing mounted low, mid or high.

The De Havallind Vampire shape

The Hawker Seahawk shape

or something like a fat F-84.

Please note that the SeaHawk and Vampire were trying to keep both intake and exhaust duct lengths to a minimum which also applied to the TA 183/Mig 15 shape. A long skinny fuselage with the intake at the nose and exhaust at the tail was considered to have to much internal drag.

 

[Shortround6]

How small should they be for landing in less than abnormally calm gusting or turbulent conditions, while retaining area enough for apt and effective control unless they wanted lots of piloted ploughs?
Ok the size is limited partially in that design by the structural possibilities of making the fin strong enough and yet have aerodynamic smoothness and with room for all the elevator related controls, which aren't drawn in - the 183 was still being designed in detail and was largely just a very advanced concept.
Balsa and tissue models had roughly proven its general slow speed unscaled CoG and basic fixed surfaces handling I grant you, but much was still not close to finalisation - hence the designs 'II' 'III' possibilities should they learn the tail of the 'I' was unsound/ill-concieved.
What differences there are between the proposed 183 and the argentinian dart/arrow should be highlighting enough from roughly the same design team.

The Luft 46 site (I know) claims that the TA 183 used Elevons and rudder for control and the rear horizontal surface was for trimming.

How true that is I have no idea but could explain the size of the horizontal tail surface, it could also mean a longer development time in flight trials while they got the system to work properly. Elevons being a rather new feature.

 

[razor1uk]

I never said I like the picture, I have a copy of it myself, but I never knew about its author/drafter. But that still doesn't change the fact that apparently only some partial wooden parts of the 183 were started being constructed - to work out equipment fitting areas and better narrowing down the guestimated CoG - as far as most people are concerned the 183 was nowwhere near to having 'metal cut for it' to make it into real aircraft.
Its still a great 'what if', just like the Hoton/Gotha wings which made it further along the developmental process to being just entering the protoype phase.