P-80 escort

[Jenisch]

Had it been necessary, the P-80 could have been fited with drop tanks and escorted American bombers to Germany?

 

[GregP]

I think it would have been very doubtful. The P-80C had a range of 1,200 miles but that was at 410 mph or so.

Since the bombers cruised at 155 to 180 mph, it would never have made it there and back, even with drop tanks ... it would just be circling around until the fuel got low. What it would have needed to make the job possible is a faster bomber by long shot ... maybe something gtaht could cruise at over 380 mph all the way there and back.

Maybe an all-Mosquito force could have been escorted by the P-80 ...

 

[wuzak]

Maybe the P-80s could be relieved of close escort duties and allowed to go hunting the Luftwaffe.

 

[GregP]

Hey Wuzak,

Here's a good reason for your all-Mosquito strategic bomber force ... so the P-80's could fly escort!

 

[Milosh]

The P-51 didn't fly with the bombers all the way to the target and back either.

Normal range of the P-80A was 780 miles, and maximum range was 1440 miles.
Fuel load: 425 US gallons normal, 885 US gallons maximum.

 

[CORSNING]

Just for the totally "OFFICIAL" record, I'm with Greg. We be gonna send 200 Mosquitos to Berlin with P-80A escorts and watch Ta 152s do cartwheels in the jetwash.

 

[CORSNING]

Hey guys,
Speeking of P-80s, how do I get from here back to the "F8F Bearcat rate of climb" thread that was on here a few weeks ago? Comeon guys, I am serious now. How do I get there?

 

[davebender]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star
The P-80C began production in 1948

If Germany is still standing during 1948 the P-80C will likely be fighting something similar to Ta-183 armed with MG-213 revolver cannon, R4M FF rockets and gyro stabilized gun sight.

 

[CORSNING]

WOW! Looky thar, a F-86 midjit!

 

[Jenisch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star
The P-80C began production in 1948

If Germany is still standing during 1948 the P-80C will likely be fighting something similar to Ta-183 armed with MG-213 revolver cannon, R4M FF rockets and gyro stabilized gun sight.

View attachment 239715

I already read that the Ta 183 had serious design flawns, and that post-war tests showed it would only be feasible with materials avaliable in the 1950s. The source is the aircraft guied of the IL Sturmovik 1946 PC flight sim (which unfornately I don't have anymore).

 

[davebender]

Dr. Tank developed Pulqui II using Ta-183 as a starting point. If Ta-183 development is completed in Germany it's likely to follow a similar design path but it will be available earlier. Ta-183A flying during 1948 might look more like this:

 

[CORSNING]

Oh, I'm sorry dave (chuckle, chuckle ,giggle giggle,....BUAAAAH HA HA! That poor little thing in post #8 looks like the tadpoles we use to squeeze down at the swimmin' hole.

 

[Milosh]

Or a MiG15.

The Pulqui wasn't exactly the greatest flier either.

 

[CORSNING]

Dr. Tank developed Pulqui II using Ta-183 as a starting point. If Ta-183 development is completed in Germany it's likely to follow a similar design path but it will be available earlier. Ta-183A flying during 1948 might look more like this:

View attachment 239716

Now that there is really cool. When did those boys across the Atlantic lake start makin' a Mig 15 hybrid? Where do they shuv them little elect motors in that thing?

 

[davebender]

He departed Argentina for India where he developed the HF-24. This gives us an idea how his jet fighter designs would evolve.
147 built.
In service 1961 to 1985.

Reminds me of a Mirage III.

 

[Jenisch]

Several sources say that the Allies realized that a swept wing would be effective to counter compressebility after seize German data. I'm skeptical if at least some Allied engineers did not reach or were not starting to reach the same conclusion as the German engineers before they seize the German research data.

As for the HF-24, the Allies also had some unusual projects. The question is if they would be feasible at the time.

 

[CORSNING]

Dave,
All funning aside, that is a very cool painting of a Ta 183 cutting through a flight of B-29.

Thanks for posting, Jeff.

 

[swampyankee]

Several sources say that the Allies realized that a swept wing would be effective to counter compressebility after seize German data. I'm skeptical if at least some Allied engineers did not reach or were not starting to reach the same conclusion as the German engineers before they seize the German research data.

As for the HF-24, the Allies also had some unusual projects. The question is if they would be feasible at the time.

Or would have been considered necessary. Certainly, the B-36 qualified as an unusual project, especially as its development started in something like 1942.

The problems of flight at high speeds were subject to serious investigation well before WW2: in the 1930s there was an international conference (in Italy) entitled "High Velocities in Aviation" (it was the Fifth Volta conference, in 1935). During this conference, the NACA representative (Eastmann Jacobs) presented Schlieren photographs, data from the NACA High Speed Wind Tunnel, etc Theodore von Karman (Caltech GALCIT, the predecessor of JPL) also got to go. Busemann presented a paper analyzing swept wings (with supersonic edges); Betz noted that swept wings would also be beneficial for transonic flight (around M=1, where there are local areas of supersonic flow, but the freestream velocity is subsonic). Robert T Jones (the aerodynamicist, not the golf course designer) published his paper about the analysis of swept wings during WW2. In other words, the NACA in the US and likely the UK (which had its fluid guys: google James Lighthill) knew the benefits of swept wings. This doesn't mean that industry had been paying attention, though: propeller aircraft were too slow to worry much transonic flow except in dives, and the P-80 -- the P-80A was just about as fast as the Me262 -- seems to have had superior airfoils, so sweep was unnecessary. This permits a lighter wing, as the structural length of a wing depends on 1/cos(sweep). An unswept wing also precludes a lot of negative flight control characteristics at high angles of attack.

 

[davebender]

Might be the first Allied jet with endurance adequate for bomber escort and fast enough to compete with German jets. Our previous bomber escort (i.e. Mustang) was also a British aircraft so perhaps U.S. Army Air Corps would accept it.

A nice looking aircraft.

 

[pattern14]

To the best of my knowledge, the original p80 was grounded at the end of ww2 anyway, due to technical hitches. A lot of discussion seems to revolve around the post war P80, not the YP 80 available in 1944/45. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it looks pretty unlikely it could have been ready for anything too serious at that stage, let alone as a long range escort. Jet aircraft were still having substantial teething troubles at the end of WW2, and it was a few more years before things really came together. The fact that the P80 and Meteor went on for decades to come shows that that the fundamental design was basically sound. As for Dr Tanks Fw Ta 183, it was a piece of crap. The Pulqui jet fighter was plagued with aerodynamic issues, and exists only as a curiosity now. I seriously doubt that even if the war dragged on, it would have amounted to anything. The Messerschmitt jet fighter projects were far superior to any thing that Tank had in the pipeline. The twin boom "Flitzer" ( basically a German Vampire) was dropped as well. The ongoing debate about the Mig 15 being developed from the Mk 3 version of the Ta 183 is just that; a debate. There is a superficial resemblance, but not much more. The low wing Mig was a distinctly different plane to the shoulder wing Ta 183.