p-80 V Me 262

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And in what way is Germany "well ahead" in metallurgy today? I don't see any breakthroughs in heat treating, processing, welding or any other processing associated with producing aircraft

FLYBOYJ, what fighter aircraft besides the Eurofighter does Germany build today ?

Anyway I wasn't talking appliance within aircraft production specifically FLYBOYJ, just metallurgical science in general. A good example today as-well as back in the day is the metals generally used in AFV's, guns and tools (of all kinds nearly) the methods in which they are machined refined.

As to production capabilities, sure the Germans can't mass-produce in the same scale as the US but they make up for that in the quality of their work, much like the Swiss - You don't have to look far to notice either.

Point is Germany specializes itself very much within steel-making having depending on huge exports in this area.
 
Koolkitty,

Just a quick response to your comments about turbochargers piston engined fighter top speeds. The Germans employed both turbo superchargers in their aircraft, and their quickest piston engined fighters (Ta-152 Dora-12/13) reached speeds ranging from 475 - 500 mph, thats faster than both the P-47M N
 
FLYBOYJ, what fighter aircraft besides the Eurofighter does Germany build today ?
NONE - and they haven't built a whole airframe in mass since the war...
Again, nothing that any other European country and these days Japan hasn't done or done similar.
As to production capabilities, sure the Germans can't mass-produce in the same scale as the US but they make up for that in the quality of their work, much like the Swiss - You don't have to look far to notice either.
Agreed to a point but in the case of metallurgical sciences there isn't much differance, in fact the US has been the leader in Titanium fabrication since the U-2 days.
Point is Germany specializes itself very much within steel-making having depending on huge exports in this area.
OK, but there's nothing world leading there. I don't see any plasma spray coating, titanium welding or laser cutting state of the art facilities that are world leading anywhere in Germany. Its not to say that the German metallurgical industry (consisting of heat treating and special processing companies) are no further state of the art than those found in the US or for that matter any where else in Europe. The leaders in this science are the ones who can produce and produce "state of the art" with that said, it's the UK, Japan and the US.
 
Your proof for this claim of top speed is ...... .

The Germans tried turbo charging in the Folke-Wulf 190 but couldn't get it to work.

The turbocharged Bv 155 only topped out at 429mph @ ~52,000ft.
 
Soren that's what I thought you meant by metalurgy (as said in my previous post). As I also said the US also has much merit in the feild of metalugical engeneering. (see my previous example)

And on your comment on quality of work in steels, I heartily agree. Just look at the world famous knives and blades from Solingen.

on a different note here's another comparison between the 262 and the P-80
(picture below) from: The First American Jet (1942) - WW2inColor Talk I still think its amazing that Lockheed got such an amazing plane out of less than a year of development (~150 days to the XP-80A then later the full-blown XP-80A and YP-80A) Though obviously not flawless, it was amazing especially considdering it was comparable to the 262 (both having their own advantages) which had over 3 years of development work.

Below the comparison is an picture story from: The Aviation History Online Museum "Bolt from Above" - Robert Winks - P51D Mustang - Me262 Jet
 

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With the GM boost I think the Ta-152 had a top speed of 472mph, though it might have been faster with both MW 50 and GM engaged at the same time. But less than 200 of this aircraft were produced and few evermade it to service. (I think a few were used as interceptors and as cover for Me-262 airfeilds) You could also include the Bf-209 world-speed setter at 469 mph, but this was never a combat plane, despite the breif attenpt to convert it to one. The Do-335 was also faster at 474 mph, and as a fighter-bomber its use is comparable to the P-47, but it didn't enter service.

The XP-47J and XP-52 were faster though (at 506 mph and 490 mph tested and 550 mph theoretical for the P-72) though these didn't enter production.

What is the Dora-12/13?
 
Oh, I found an article on the FH Phantom and itlists the size of arious Westinghouse engines proposed for it, the chosen J30 engines were 19 inches in diameter and produced 1600 lbs thrust. That is a more compact design then i thought, the powere of a welland or I-16 in an engine of less than half the diameter and thus less than 1/4 the frontal area and about half the frontal area of the 003! This engine possibly has the highest thrust to frontal area ratio of the war, even higher than the 24.4 inch HeS-30 tested at 2004 lbf (910 kp). It powered the US's first aircraft to take-off and land on a carrier the FH Phantom, which was also the first US jet to use axial engines. here are some line drawings: http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/fh1_1_3v.jpg http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/fh1_2_3v.jpg and its sucessor the F2H Banshee: http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/f2h_banshee_3v.jpg

Though, with both the engine and aircraft development going slowly the prototype wasn't ready untill 1945 (ordered in '43), and largely due to the war in the Pacific ending, didn't enter production untill '46, and service untill mid '47 by which time its replacement the larger, more powerefull, higher performing and better armed F2H Banshee was nearly ready to enter service along with the F9 Panther and the FJ Fury and would all would enter service in about a year. So the order was reduced from 100 to 30 andthen raised to 60 and the Phantom served as a conversion trainer and never saw combat, similar to the P-59, though it did see a short period of front-line use from 1947-1948. (though if the war had continued and Japan was invaded a planned, its likely the FH Phantom would have seen some service before Japan surrendered)
 

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False. Ta152H were not used as airfield cover.

Although some writers have stated that Ta 152s flew "top-cover" for bases from which Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters operated, this seems unlikely..... The Ta 152s of the Stabsschwarm did fly airfield protection duties for the Doras of II./JG 301 given that the various Gruppen of JG 301 were housed on different fields..
 


Knives don't fly unless you throw them!
 

To be technical, the design theory with having tip tanks was to create a 'two dimensional' effect at the wing tip to reduce the tip vortex - which reduces induce drag - the more elegant approach is the modern 'winglet'.
 

I have enormous respect for the aero and metallurgy and pure engineering skills exhibited by Germans then and now - but for some reason you trivialize Brit and American engineering talent in comparison.

Why?
 

Actually Bill got it right - they just flapped like hell in a dive or at higher mach numbers.

The Fletcher tip tanks (found on most T-33s) had a capacity of 233 gallons
 

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