Overlord/D-Day and the Me-262

[EwenS]

Air-laid mines? Again, retarded by parachute after drop, so probably usable by the Me262. Magnetic and influence bottom laid mines are ship killers. Would the off-shore shallows along the invasion beaches lallow such? Did the Luftwaffe have any that could have been carried and laid by the Me262? Relatively low attrition rate for the Me262.

The Luftwaffe ran an extensive aerial mining campaign against the Normandy beachhead after D-Day using magnetic, acoustic and the new 'Oyster' pressure mines (usually with magnetic or acoustic circuits as well). It is believed over 600 were laid in the British sector alone in the first month after D-Day. They kept the sweepers busy!!!

They had a stock of about 2,000 Oysters amassed before D-Day but only seem to have used a fraction of them. Their appearance was not a total surprise to the Allies but they were nearly impossible to sweep. The immediate solution was for all vessels to slow down. How much depended on vessel size and how close inshore they were. Examples were found to be dissected by Allied mine experts before June ended.

 

[EwenS]

re use of the Motobomba FFF in WWII

According to Wiki, what was possibly the most successful attack with Motobomba FFF:
"On December 2 [1943] a force of 105 German Ju 88s attacked Bari harbour with FFFs, destroying 16 Allied ships . . ."

"Motobomba - Wikipedia."

Most of the damage was caused by conventional bombs and the explosions of the two merchantmen hit that were carrying munitions in a harbour packed with shipping.

There were a number of serious explosions of vessels in harbours in WW2 while carrying munitions, all with devastating consequences far beyond the sinking of the individual ship concerned.

1944 Bombay explosion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

West Loch disaster - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Port Chicago disaster - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Mysterious USS Mount Hood Disaster -

On November 10, 1944, the USS Mount Hood, an ammunition ship anchored in Seeadler Harbor, Manus Island, spontaneously exploded, resulting in one of the

navalhistoria.com

 

[EwenS]

Definitely unaffected by the barrage-balloons shown above, then. Thanks for clarifying that, takes that concern off the table.

Which puts them right into the realms of the light AA barrage that could be put up. Might not hit such a fast moving target like an Me262 but would certainly put the pilot of his aim a bit!

Even something like an LCT carried a couple of 20mm, an LCI 4, an LST 6 (RN) or a mix of heavier 40mm & 20mm in US LSTs. Then add in the warships with heavier AA armaments and better directors. Maybe doesn't track individual targets but can put up barrages through which those Me262s have got to fly to get to their targets.

Plenty of radar sets at sea and ashore to give warning of impending attack. The RAF was putting its first radar units ashore by evening on D-Day itself.

 

[pbehn]

Everything you said is true.

I wasn't really trying to explore the strategic question. I think we all already understand there is no German move that wins in 1944, and no way for the Germans to have 300 Me-262s suddenly surpirse the Allies. I was just curious about a very tactical question ... how effective would a bunch of Me-262s be at attacking some time around D-Day.

Not very effective in my opinion. My uncle was a Brit in the RoC aboard a US flak ship on D Day. The ships were so trigger happy that it was a dangerous place to be, most US servicemen/gunners had not been trained in aircraft identification so they opened up on anything that went near. In the end they used P-38s near the fleet as they were quite distinctive from other allied fighters. The 262s only advantage was speed, but the faster you go the harder it is to hit anything. A Typhoon could do 400MPH approaching a target but that didnt stop many being lost to ground fire.

 

[pbehn]

Which puts them right into the realms of the light AA barrage that could be put up. Might not hit such a fast moving target like an Me262 but would certainly put the pilot of his aim a bit!

Even something like an LCT carried a couple of 20mm, an LCI 4, an LST 6 (RN) or a mix of heavier 40mm & 20mm in US LSTs. Then add in the warships with heavier AA armaments and better directors. Maybe doesn't track individual targets but can put up barrages through which those Me262s have got to fly to get to their targets.

Plenty of radar sets at sea and ashore to give warning of impending attack. The RAF was putting its first radar units ashore by evening on D-Day itself.

I dont know about the mathematics of it, as I understand it speed makes it more difficult to for an individual gunner to hit an individual aircraft. With a barrage there comes a point where the faster you go the more likely you are to be hit, and evasive action is pointless because you fly into shots that would have missed. It was an issue I read about with the JP233 runway denial bomblet dispenser.

 

[Nick Beale]

There was a reconnaissance version of the Me 262, it entered service in late 1944 and its radius of action (as quoted by the Chef der Technischen Luftrüstung in April 1945) was 150 km. If the Germans wanted an extended range reconnaissance jet why go to all that trouble when they already had the Ar 234?

The Ar 234 flew its first reconnaissance over Normandy on 2 August 1944; the Me 262 flew its first bombing operation (against Bonnières) on 25 August. The Me 262 unit concerned had four aircraft at this point, the Ar 234 Kommando had two.

 

[pbehn]

There was a reconnaissance version of the Me 262, it entered service in late 1944 and its radius of action (as quoted by the Chef der Technische Luftrüstung in April 1945) was 150 km. If the Germans wanted an extended range reconnaissance jet why go to all that trouble when they already had the Ar 234?

The Ar 234 flew its first reconnaissance over Normandy on 2 August 1944; the Me 262 flew its first bombing operation (against Bonnières) on 25 August. The Me 262 unit concerned had four aircraft at this point, the Ar 234 Kommando had two.

150Km is less than 100 miles, it wouldnt get you across the channel and leaves your airfields dangerously close to the enemy in a land war.

 

[Shortround6]

Early jets had a rather strange range/radius relationship with altitude.
Old William Green book (could very well be in error) says the 262 (with 396imp gal) had a range of 298 miles at sea level, 526 miles at 19,685ft and 652miles at 29,560ft.
Speed/s not given
Pilot's manual for the P-80 shows a somewhat similar pattern between range and altitude.
Pure jet engines are horrible at low speed.

Figure a turbo prop has about the same propulsive efficiency as a piston engine, Props were about 80% at just under 400mph.
For the jets the closer the exhaust gas velocity is to the speed of the airplane the better off you are.
Think of trying to get good gas mileage with your car with the tires spinning.

The jets could fly very fast at low altitude, they just can't go very far.

 

[pigeon]

In addition to everything already said, the bomber versions of 262 absolutely, positively, SUCKED. Not just at bombing, but staying alive in general. The way they were made (bomb racks off CoG, then playing around with additional fuel tanks to keep it in some semblance of balance...) resulted in certain points during it's mission where it could be run down by late war Allied props, and IT COULD NOT JETTISON THE BOMBS without crashing out of control due to Cg switching the other way around beyond the plane's limits.

 

[Snautzer01]

and IT COULD NOT JETTISON THE BOMBS without crashing out of control due to Cg switching the other way around beyond the plane's limits.

Would you care to give some sources for that?

 

[pigeon]

Would you care to give some sources for that?

The book "Hitler's Jet Plane" by Mano Ziegler. Lost my copy years ago so can't quote anything directly, but the CoG problems were a big part of it.

 

[Snautzer01]

Thats strange. I have some german docs that say it could bomb accurate enough. Nothing there about crashing after release.

 

[pigeon]

Thats strange. I have some german docs that say it could bomb accurate enough. Nothing there about crashing after release.

The same book also stated that it's bombing accuracy where it could be verified (i.e. in support of front line troops) was completely abysmal. I don't know how trustworthy that book is (you could tell the author REALLY hated the scheme of turning 262 into a bomber), but it "felt" solid.

Edit: turns out there's a piratable audiobook version of it kicking around the torrents. The mods probably frown on posting these kind of links here, so all imma saying is search, and you shall find. As for me, I have already paid my royalties, and therefore know what I'm going to listen to on this week's commute. Still would like to have my printed copy though, books like these really don't transfer over to audio format...