Performance modifications done at Squadron level.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Bearn and Jeanne d' Arc, stranded at Martinique June 1940
6 Brewster Buffalo for Belgium, nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, became derelict
23 Curtiss Hawk H75A-4, some reported to Free French later in war
33 Stinson 105, to Free French later in war
44 Curtiss SBC Helldivers, ex USN, became derelict
Different sources give different numbers of aircraft, the above from Air Arsenal North America, which says "some" H75A-4

Original French Order was 285 H-75A-4/Mohawk IV/H751 serials 1 to 285, Distribution was 81 to France, numbers 1 to 64, 79 to 90, 92 to 94, 96, 97, the other 204 to Britain.

Bearn numbers 59 to 64 (13864 to 13869), 83/13888, 85/13890, 86/13891, 88 to 90 (13893 to 13895), 92 to 94 (13897 to 1390), 96/13901, 97/13902 = 17 aircraft
Jeanne d' Arc numbers 79 to 82 (13884 to 13887), 84/13889, 87/13892 = 6 aircraft

It is probable Bearn shipped uncrated aircraft, Jeanne d'Arc crated ones, the former were stored in the open and (mostly?) went derelict.

The final H75 shipment that made it to France was the Indo Chinois dated 25 May with numbers 26 to 58 (31879 to 13863). As far as I know the H75 were sent to France, some other US types were sent to North Africa for assembly before being flown to France.

 

[MIflyer]

The book you use as reference has some significant issues reference the French Hawks

The first couple of volumes of Air Enthusiast (Circa 1972, I have bound volumes) have a series of articles on the Hawk 75 that present certainly a more complete and probably a more accurate history of the airplane but scanning them and presenting them here requires more effort than I am prepared to undertake at this time. But you might have a look at that publication.

 

[Buz101]

The first couple of volumes of Air Enthusiast (Circa 1972, I have bound volumes) have a series of articles on the Hawk 75 that present certainly a more complete and probably a more accurate history of the airplane but scanning them and presenting them here requires more effort than I am prepared to undertake at this time. But you might have a look at that publication.

Fair call - another good book should you wish to find it is Curtiss Fighter Aircraft - A photographic history 1917-1948 - but there's quiet a few out there these days.

I think the numbers and identity of the Hawks that arrived in the UK could be an interesting area of research, depending on whats written on the AM78's.

Buz

 

[Shortround6]

According to "Curtiss Fighter Aircraft - A photographic history 1917-1948" The British wound up with a few more Hawk 75s than 204.
The 204 were all the ex French 75A-4s and were called Mohawk IVs. The Mohawk I, II, and IIIs were designations assigned to the Hawk 75A-1, A-2 and A-3 that escaped from France and later French territories in North Africa (4 aircraft?). Since these arrived in different places, at different times and in one's and two's (?) collecting them, refurbishing them and issuing them to units was pretty low priority. The British did pick a couple of handfuls of other Hawk 75s.
They got about 5 (?) out of the Chinese/Indian adventure and 9/10 more when the British took over Iran, Mostly/entirely still in crates. The Iranian planes were Mohawk IVs and 9 would up in India with the No 151 OTU with serial numbers LA157 to LA165. Serial number LA166 was assigned to the 10th airframe but records are unclear what happened to it (according to Curtiss Fighter Aircraft - A photographic history 1917-1948). The planes where built to hold 6 guns but either no guns or only the two fuselage guns were installed when delivered.
The Chinese/Indian aircraft were used in India with the EX-French contract aircraft.
15-16 of the EX-French aircraft were given to Portugal in late 1941 and they remained in service (in diminishing numbers) until mid 1945.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

According to "Curtiss Fighter Aircraft - A photographic history 1917-1948" The British wound up with a few more Hawk 75s than 204.
The 204 were all the ex French 75A-4s and were called Mohawk IVs. The Mohawk I, II, and IIIs were designations assigned to the Hawk 75A-1, A-2 and A-3 that escaped from France and later French territories in North Africa (4 aircraft?).
They got about 5 (?) out of the Chinese/Indian adventure and 9/10 more when the British took over Iran, Mostly/entirely still in crates. The Iranian planes were Mohawk IVs and 9 would up in India with the No 151 OTU with serial numbers LA157 to LA165. Serial number LA166 was assigned to the 10th airframe but records are unclear what happened to it
The Chinese/Indian aircraft were used in India with the EX-French contract aircraft.
15-16 of the EX-French aircraft were given to Portugal in late 1941 and they remained in service (in diminishing numbers) until mid 1945.

The section of the book needs an update. It is likely the 4 Middle East issued RAF Mohawk serials HK823 to HK826 are for SAAF Mohawks, corresponding to the 4 Mohawks that have 2 SAAF serials. That is RAF serial issued in Britain, arrive South Africa, receive SAAF serial, arrive Middle East via SAAF operations in East Africa, receive RAF Middle East serial, return South Africa, receive new SAAF serial. The different commands are unlikely to have known the serial histories.

SAAF 2501 to 2559 direct from Britain, but some seem to have been sent direct to East Africa, 2560 to 2564 and 2566 to 2573 aircraft originally sent to Takoradi then on to Middle East, 2574 to 2577 second SAAF serials, 2580 aircraft originally sent to Takoradi then to Middle East. Assuming I have the serials correct.

Stories of French H75 being flown to British bases by defecting pilots would need to match stories of such aircraft being handed over to Free French units without any RAF serial allocated.

AR630 to 634 were ex Norway Mohawk III, giving 209 serials issued in Britain, 5 ex Norway order, 204 ex France order Mohawk IV

65 AR630 AR694
19 AX880 AX898
20 BB918 BB937
6 BB974 BB979
20 BJ434 BJ453
20 BJ531 BJ550
20 BK569 BK588
4 BK876 BK879
4 BL220 BL223
9 BS730 BS738
4 BS744 BS747
15 BS784 BS798
3 BT470 BT472

The 10 machines for Persia/Iran were H75A-9, accepted and exported March/April 1941, the occupation of Iran began on 25 August, many sources list their RAF serials as LA157 to LA165, that is 9 aircraft. RAF Form 78 Aircraft Cards exist for LA157, 158, 159, 163, 164, 165 saying South East Asia and giving disposal date, there are no entries in the RAF Serial Registers. These aircraft seem to have existed outside the standard accounting system, at least for February 1943 to June 1944, which has 209 Mohawks in total.

No RAF serials issued for any reported Chinese/Indian production.

Britain sent to Portugal 11 Mohawk in August and another 5 in October 1941, AR636, AR642, AR652, AR668, AR679, AR680, AX882, AX886, BB927, BJ531, BJ547, BJ548, BK582, BL220, BS732, BS789

According to the British Import/Export figures 204 into Britain (missing the Norwegian ones), which then exported 17 to Middle East November 1940 and January 1941 (via Takoradi, the 16 survivors not flown out until late 1941 on), many of these to South Africa via the Middle East, 62 to South Africa, 16 to Portugal and 86 to India.

 

[MIflyer]

And then there were the ones built in Argentina.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

A little snippet of the operational history in the CBI, from Shores "Air War for Burma" / Bloody Shambles Vol. 3.

Page 34, 17 Nov 1942
I think this was the first combat involving the Mohawks.

Morning
8 Blenheim IV boimbers from 60 Sqn and four more from 113 Sqn attacked the docks at Akyab, escorted by 8 Mohawk IVs of 155 Sqn RAF. These were attacked by a CAP of 6 Ki-43-Is from the elite 64th Sentai unit. In the ensuing dogfight, 64th Sentai claimed 2 Mohawks, 155 Sqn claimed 2 Ki-43s (one shared with Blenheim bombers). Actual losses were 2 Mohawks and 1 Blenheim on the RAF side, and 1 Ki-43-I on the 64th Sentai, piloted by Capt. Hareyasu Maruo (the commander).

Afternoon
11 Blenheim IV bombers from the 113 Sqn RAF and 6 more from the 34 and 60 Sqns RAF were sent on a mission to bomb Satogya Creek shipyards, escorted by (I think?) nine Mohawk IVs of 5 Sqn RAF. One Blenheim was shot down reportedly by AAA.

These were divided into a high cover of 4 fighters flying at 14,000 ft and another group (he doesn't indicate how many) flying close escort near the bombers closer to 8,000 ft. These were attacked by 8 x Ki-43-Is from the elite 64th Sentai, divided into two groups of four. The JAAF fighters immediately shot down two 34 Sqn Blenheims which were straggling behind the others, piloted by HA Elliot RCAF and A.M. Howe of the RAF. The Ki-43s were then engaged by the close escort which seems to have been five Mohawks (but I'm not certain, going by the number of pilots he mentions). The Mohawk pilots claimed two shot down, one 'probable' and five 'damaged', before one flown by Pt Off R.S. Tovey was hit in a collision by a Ki-43 which was seen to crash, sending Tovey's Mohawk into a spin but he recovered and flew home. The 64th Sentai Hayabusa pilots claimed two Mohawks shot down.

No Mohawks were actually lost, 64th Sentai lost two Ki-43-Is, one from the collision and another whose pilot was wounded and later force-landed and died.

Total losses for the day were 3 x Blenheim IV shot down, 2 x Mohawk IV, and 3 x Ki-43. Two more Blenheims and two Mohawks were significantly damaged though they landed back at base. The 155 Sqn pilots noted that their Mohawk IVs "could turn with the Ki-43s."

10 Dec 1942
(I think this was the first combat involving Huricanes in this area)

During a major bombing raid on Chittagong, 7 Ki-43-Is from the 50th Sentai spotted 12 Hurricane IICs (6 each from 135 and 136 Sqn). Two Hurricanes were immediately shot down, with a third evading. This was spotted by another Ki-43-I from 64th Sentai which attacked it until it crash landed on the beach. 135 Sqn meanwhile claimed three Ki-43s 'probable'). One 50th Sentai Ki-43 was in fact lost, no other damage reported.

So total losses were 3 x Hurricane IIC and 1 Ki-43-I.

24 Dec 1942
8 Hurricane IIB and IIC (4 each from 607 and 615 Sqn) made a strafing run at Magwe on Christmas Eve. RAF pilots claimed two Ki-43s, but they lost two Hurricanes. Actual losses seem to be those two Hurricanes plus one Ki-43 destroyed on the ground.

26 Dec 1942
10 Ki-43-I from 50th Sentai escorted nine Ki-48 from 8th Sentai who attacked the US base near Kunming, China. These were intercepted by P-40s from the USAAF 16th FS, 23rd FG. The US pilots claimed 7 Zeros and 2 bombers and a twin engined recon aircraft. Actual losses were 2 P-40s (one apparently to defensive guns by the bombers) and 1 Ki-43. One of the bombers was set on fire but the crew put the fire out and it and one other shot up Ki-48 also managed to land back at base. Another Ki-43 was badly damaged but also landed at base.

16 Jan 1943
Another raid by 50th Sentai Ki-43-Is escorting Ki-48 bombers against Kunming (he doesn't say how many) again intercepted by 16th FS P-40s from the 23rd FG (also doesn't say how many), which claimed 11 "Army Zeros" and one bomber. Actual losses were one Ki-43-I shot down and one crash landed. 50th Sentai claimed three P-40s but none seem to have been lost.

19 Jan 1943
Mohawk IV of 5 Sqn RAF (he doesn't say how many) were escorting Bisleys (Blenheim Mk V) to bomb Akyab. This group ran into 6 Ki-43-Is from 1 Chutai and seven from the 3 Chutai of 50th Sentai. In the resulting 20-30 minute dogfight, claimed one destroyed (due to another collision) and several damaged. 50th Sentai claimd 7 Mohawks shot down and 9 probables - plus 2 Hurricanes, which may have been some 28 Sqn TacR Hurricanes which were flying by the melee. Actual losses were 1 Ki-43-I destroyed, no RAF planes lost. Three Mohawks and one Bisley were damaged but all landed safely back at base.

12 February 1943
6 Ki-43-II (their first action with this unit I think) escorted 3 Ki-48s to bomb Akyab, reported being attacked by "six Hurricanes and two Mohawks". Shores doesn't find any indication of Hurricanes being present, one Ki-43-II was destroyed by Flt Sgt D.R. Wicks.

20 February 1943
11 x Ki-43-II escorting 3 Ki-48s to attack Akyab. These were intercepted by 5 Hurricane IIC from 135 Sn which were attacked by 3 of the Ki-43-IIs, the other 8 continuing with the bombers. Result was 2 Hurricanes shot down, no JAAF losses.

25 February 1943
21 Ki-43-II from 64th and 50th Sentais escorted 9 Ki-21s from 98th Sentai to attack Dibrugark. These were attacked by up to 32 P-40s from the 25th and 26th FS of the 51s FG. Most of the Ki-43s got into a dogfight with the P-40s allowing some other P-40s to attack the bombers. 64th Sentai claimed 5 P-40s destroyed, but none actually were. US pilots claimed 12 enemy planes but actual losses were 1 Ki-21 and 1 Ki-43, the pilot was Major Takeo Akera, the commander, who was killed.

28 February 1943
16 Ki-43 from 50th Sentai intercepted 6 Blenheims from 60 Sqn escorted by 7 Hurricane IIB and IIC from 136 Squadron. More Hurricanes from 79 and 607 Sqn then scrambled and joined the fight. Results were 2 Hurricanes shot down, one more crash landed, and another landed heavily damaged. None of the Ki-43s were shot down or seriously damaged.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

One interesting thing worth noting is that in all of these little skirmishes, multiple aircraft were shot up but made it back to base. All of the Japanese planes and the Mohawks all lacked self sealing fuel tanks as far as I know, and the Mohawks and Ki-43-IIs had a bit of armor but not much. Yet they seemed to survive a lot of battle damage.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This is what happened to the Spitfire I, X4110 of 602 Sqn after being hit by some (probably) MG-FF/M Mine shells on 18 August 1940...total operational life = 1 hour.

View attachment 858295View attachment 858296View attachment 858297
Colours of mine shell would have been the same as those of the MG 151/20.

Were the unit numbers painted over before this photo?

 

[NZTyphoon]

Were the unit numbers painted over before this photo?

No, the squadron had only just received X4110 and hadn't had time to paint the squadron codes (LO), or aircraft letter, before the Spitfire flew its first and only operational sortie.

 

[Admiral Beez]

No, the squadron had only just received X4110 and hadn't had time to paint the squadron codes (LO), or aircraft letter, before the Spitfire flew its first and only operational sortie.

I assume they pulled off the engine, guns, and anything of use. A Spitfire Mk.I even in this condition would be worth about $2 million or more. I think of that when we see the RN toss Seafires over the side.

 

[Engineman]

I assume they pulled off the engine, guns, and anything of use. A Spitfire Mk.I even in this condition would be worth about $2 million or more. I think of that when we see the RN toss Seafires over the side.

In WW2, there was a fairly comprehensive system in the RAF for processing damaged RAF aircraft. A damaged aircraft would be catagorised for the damage and level of repair required.
Minor damages could be repaired on site, and sometimes bigger damage was repaired on site with a works team, but more major repairs would be fed into the MU system for major work at a remote site. With this aircraft, the record states, "FF 7-8-40 9MU 9-8-40 602Sq 16-8-40 Damaged by Bf109 over Ford landed Westhampnett CE 18-8-40 FLt JD Urie inj 49MU salvaged. Cunliffe-Owen SOC 5-10-40". There we can see that it was declared CE (Cat E =write off) and was processed through 49MU for salvage, which would most likely have included all the spares recovery, which may have been considerable. After 49MU had finished salvage, the remaining parts were passed to Cuncliffe-Owen company as Scrap, Cuncliffe-Owen probably acting under a bulk contract. The aircraft was struck-off-charge when the remains were passed to Cuncliffe-Owen.
Aircraft that were mostly destroyed were likely passed straight to a scrap contractor and SOC. Those that were completely lost were SOC when the loss was confirmed in the paperwork.

Eng

 

[MIflyer]

In WW2, there was a fairly comprehensive system in the RAF for processing damaged RAF aircraft.

In 1942 an F-4 Lightning of the 9th PRS was caught on the ground by the Japanese in eastern India and shot up pretty badly. They managed to patch it together well enough to fly it to the Sub-depot at Imphal, where it was supposed to be repaired. A year later it still had not been returned to the 9th and when asked about it the depot people said they were tired of working on it and for the 9th to just take it; they did not even have to sign for it. Presumably it would be listed as destroyed.

Shortly thereafter a C-46 taking off from the 9th's base swerved and hit two brand new P-38J. By combining the parts from the old F-4 and the new wrecked J models, the 9th built themselves a hot rod that was off the books.

On one mission, coming home after carrying some photographic recon products the old F-4's pilot was challenged to a race by the pilot of a new Spit VIII. The F-4 pilot pointed out his airplane was unarmed and did not even have any cameras mounted. But in the end he agreed to a race.

Heh, Heh, Heh...

You know those stories about Mig-21's trying to catch an SR-71?

It was just like that.

 

[Engineman]

In 1942 an F-4 Lightning of the 9th PRS was caught on the ground by the Japanese in eastern India and shot up pretty badly. They managed to patch it together well enough to fly it to the Sub-depot at Imphal, where it was supposed to be repaired. A year later it still had not been returned to the 9th and when asked about it the depot people said they were tired of working on it and for the 9th to just take it; they did not even have to sign for it. Presumably it would be listed as destroyed.

Shortly thereafter a C-46 taking off from the 9th's base swerved and hit two brand new P-38J. By combining the parts from the old F-4 and the new wrecked J models, the 9th built themselves a hot rod that was off the books.

On one mission, coming home after carrying some photographic recon products the old F-4's pilot was challenged to a race by the pilot of a new Spit VIII. The F-4 pilot pointed out his airplane was unarmed and did not even have any cameras mounted. But in the end he agreed to a race.

Heh, Heh, Heh...

You know those stories about Mig-21's trying to catch an SR-71?

It was just like that.

Yes, in extremis the system broke down. I believe the N.Africa campaigns in WW2 were so far removed from supplies of spares at times, that both Allied and Axis were mixing and matching damaged aircraft parts to generate flying aircraft. Merlin engine rebuilds in Cairo were really hard pressed, with tales of piston rings being turned from cast-iron drainpipes. In Malta, I have read of crashed Blenheim Bristol Mercury engines being used in Gladiators.
The Germans at home were very industrious. By mid war, Bf109 B/C were routinely rebuilt for flying schools, and from about 1943, the Bf 109G seems to have been in a constant flux of damaged-rebuilt aircraft, although I do think that was to rebuild similar aircraft, I think the newer types were mostly new-build.

Eng

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Actually I'll take a mea culpa here, I forgot FLTLT D H Clarke was in fact at 450SQN for 3 Months before posting to 250SQN


Other way around, 260 got their first Kittyhawk II's in very late Aug 42 and dropped their Kittyhawk II's in mid Dec 42 (after spending a number of weeks flying both Kittyhawk II and III).

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this. I have had several irons in the fire these last few weeks and to answer this and some other posts I had to find my source on the bookshelf, which for the P-40F in British service is namely the one I mention below.


Let me just also say at the outset that this issue of British use of the P-40F/L / Merlin engine types is a very tricky one to nail down. I have numerous 'respectable' books by well regarded authors which state unequivocally that Merlin-engined P-40s were never used by the British. In fact, it seems that they had planned to equip four squadrons with these types and ended up only flying them with two units, and one of those (260 Sqn) for a relatively short period, mainly because the US reneged on the original deal and took more of these types for their own large fighter presence in the region, with ultimately 5 fighter groups flying them.

I think this was a sore point for the British as they were arguably the biggest users of the P-40 and sorely noted the deficiencies of the type, which they hoped the Merlin engine would help address- and it did, at least partly. It certainly proved by far the most effective P-40 type in air combat against Bf 109F/G and MC 202 / 205 type fighters, being arguably roughly at parity. But part of the problem was also due to the specific details of the licensing agreement between Rolls Royce and Packard, which only produced a relatively small number of the Merlin 28 / XX copy / V-1650-1 types, and a certain number of these had to go to Canada for British aircraft types (most ended up not seeing combat, I think) with the bulk of Packard-Merlin production going to the Merlin 60 series for the P-51 (and some other types).

The lack of V-1650-1 limited the number of P-40F and L / Kittyhawk II and IIa which could be produced, and also they had a serious shortage of spare parts, both of which the British helped alleviate to some extent from their supply system in the MTO. From what I understand they were partly sourcing parts and maybe engines (?) from Hurricanes and other types flying British made Merlin XX which were very similar to though not identical to Packard V-1650-1 / Merlin 28.

3 RAAF picked up their first Kittyhawk III in Oct 1942 (which lasted until the 4th Nov) and then Kittyhawk II's in Nov 1942 - they flew a mix of I's, II's and III's on operations (slowly dropping the number of I's) until 18th Nov 42 when they became fully equipped with Kittyhawk II's. They did receive a few Kittyhawk III's in Dec 1942 (4 aircraft) that were swapped with 260 SQN, thus making both Units fully equipped with a single type. It remained this way unit Mar 43 when losses forced 3 SQN to use some Kittyhawk III's for a month until more Kittyhawk II (this time L models) became available. They then flew Kittyhawk II's until around April 44 when they received Kittyhawk III's again for a week or two and then converted to Kittyhawk IV's

You are right about the timeline for 3 Sqn RAAF, but my source (Squadron! publications #18, the Curtiss Kittyhawk Mk II) does not agree with you about 260 RAF, which they say used the type from August 1942 until April-May 1943.

And the specific situation I was referring to is discussed here. Apologies for the photo, but they noted that as I had indicated previously, losses of the Kittyhawk Mk III, which they began to receive in January 1943, because the losses of the Kittyhawk III were so high.

It's a bit confusing because of course Kittyhawk III to the British could mean the P-40M (rated for lower boost but with a higher performance ceiling of around 17,000 ft) or the P-40K (rated for high boost, probably the fastest Kittyhawk type at low altitude, with up to 1,570 hp at max rated boost of 60", but very limited in altitude performance, peaking around 12,000 ft). We don't know which type though I think initially this refers to P-40K.

P-40M also had the long tail while the P-40K production run was split between the early ones with the tail fin and the later ones with the two-feet longer fuselage. The latter, based on comments by several DAF pilots including James Edwards of 260 Sqn, was by far preferable due to improved stability.

One British pilot noted that he preferred Kittyhawk III for dive bombing missions and Kittyhawk II for escort, which makes a lot of sense. Many of the specific fighter vs fighter engagements listed in this book and other sources for Kittyhawk II took place between 15,000-20,000 ft altitude

To that I also noted that this publication comments about the P-40L having the long tail and being much preferred by the British units over the F model. In actuality, from what I understand, about half of the F and some of the early L had the short tails, while the latter half of the F production run and most of the L had the long tail (maybe you know the details). Anyway, the British rated the longer tails specifically regarding the stability issue. The Squadron book says they phased out the short tailed types and gave them to the French

I have some data, as well as some days the tests were undertaken, happy to pass to you as required (drop me a PM) and I'll hunt them out

Aircraft was the CO's bird (FT928 OK-L), which was damaged on ops 18th April 1945 - during the time it was repaired, the aircraft gained Clipped wings (plugs being made of wood were used, vice the wing tips). (A photo can be found here - Australians at War Film Archive) there's additional photos of it around, one below is shown leading 450SQN on the flypast 28th May 45

View attachment 859468

Buz

Definitely curious about that clipped wing P-40, did they do any tests on it?

 

[Buz101]

If we are going for partially equipped then yes, see below for date ranges for you - please note out of the Months from Jan to end of Apr 260 flew 80 Operations - this is about 60% of most other units.... but during this time frame there was certainly a lot of practice and training going.

Without the serial number (260's ORB is less then stella) I cannot tell if 260SQN borrowed aircraft from 3 SQN or the training Units based close on the same airfields, so can't tell what aircraft belongs to whom (yes loaning aircraft happened a lot). At times the SQN had a single Kittyhawk II and at other times up to 14 for a day or two then back down.... it's a very messy period.

Dec 1942 1-15 Dec 42 – fully equipped with Kittyhawk II
16-18 Dec 42 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)
19-31 Dec 42 – Fully equipped with Kittyhawk III (P-40K)

Jan 1943 1-27 Jan 43 – Fully equipped with Kittyhawk III (P-40K)
27-30 Jan 43 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)

Feb 1943 01-21 Feb 1943 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)
22-28 Feb 1943 – Fully Equipped with Kittyhawk II

Mar 1943 01-02 Mar 1943 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)
03-15 Mar 1943 – Fully Equipped with Kittyhawk II
16-31 Mar 1943 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)

Apr 1943 01-31 Apr 1943 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K) – Also first P-40L (WGCDR Aircraft - but flown by 260 SQN at times)

May 1943 01-07 May 1943 – Partially equipped with Kittyhawk II (likely only a single aircraft – the WGCDRs P-40L)/Partially with Kittyhawk III (K)
08 May onwards Kittyhawk III (both K and M)

Now based on equipped, partially equipped, not equipped ruling you seem to be using, then we need to change a lot of information - with the following, as all these Units had 1-6 P-40F's or P-40L's (and flew them at least a few times).

Kittyhawk II (P-40F) Units now to read - 3 SQN, 260SQN, 1 MECCU, 1 METS, 239WG TF, and 2RSU TF
Kittyhawk II (P-40L) Units now to read - 3 SQN, 260SQN, 349SQN, 1 MECCU, 1 METS, MEFC, DAF TF, and likely 5RFU

Let me just also say at the outset that this issue of British use of the P-40F/L / Merlin engine types is a very tricky one to nail down. I have numerous 'respectable' books by well regarded authors which state unequivocally that Merlin-engined P-40s were never used by the British. In fact, it seems that they had planned to equip four squadrons with these types and ended up only flying them with two units, and one of those (260 Sqn) for a relatively short period, mainly because the US reneged on the original deal and took more of these types for their own large fighter presence in the region, with ultimately 5 fighter groups flying them.

Yes, some books are in error over a few things, I've seen such things as USAAF only using 5 P-40M (USAAF one of the biggest users of P-40M) , Soviet Union getting Merlin models (This came about as batches of M and N models went to Russia from RAF allocations and had FS serial numbers, the P-40L had FS Serial numbers so you put 1 and 1 together and you get 3 in this case), the P-40L tail issue and Tomahawks over Europe issues (see below) - although I've not seen the one with the British not having the Merlin models before.

Without touching the Tomahawks (they're a different mess), the Kittyhawk was originally supposed to equip 3, 33, 94, 112, 260 and 450 SQN, then there was much shuffling around to get what actually happened.

It's really not surprising that the RAF was a "bit miffed" - especially with what happened with the P-40E-1's with the much reduced shipment of aircraft (supposed to get 264 from Feb-May 1942 - by 8th Apr 42 had only been advised of 31 being shipped - this continued until P-40M's, as even K models are messy) any attempt to mess around with the F model was always going to be problematic, so when the USAAF forces said we want to take 60 F models (as spares for the 57FG who were only training at the time) in exchange we'll give you 60 K models the RAF said no - so they just took them anyhow and to make matters worse the USAAF didn't actually use many of them and gave most of what they took to the FFAF, with the 57th FG still getting K models anyhow). Then you can add additional relocation of the P-40L's shipped as well.........(if you want to read some of the correspondence for this info above, I recommended file Air 2/7498 in the British National Archives).

It's a bit confusing because of course Kittyhawk III to the British could mean the P-40M (rated for lower boost but with a higher performance ceiling of around 17,000 ft) or the P-40K

Seeing the first M models didn't leave the US until late Feb/Mar 1943 then I think you're fairly safe saying P-40K here, but mostly Short tailed K-1/K-5 models (4 long tailed K models did make it to 260SQN in this period as well).

In actuality, from what I understand, about half of the F and some of the early L had the short tails, while the latter half of the F production run and most of the L had the long tail (maybe you know the details).

Ye gods man - no no and more no...............the L model had long tails, full stop, end of (yes the P-40F was mixed)..........this is one of those great P-40 myths that has hung around in books (the first 50 having short tails (serials 42-10430-42-10480)) and other print materials for the last god knows how many years (in the same vein as the Tomahawks in the UK never flew operations over mainland Europe apart from one unofficial sortie.......well I'm sure Colin can attest to 268 SQN and a number of other Tomahawk Units flying over Europe, these having both claims and losses whilst doing so).

That said the Long/short tail story of the L model is easily disproved by the existence of photos of 42-10436 (#13) of the 317th FS, 42-10439 (A-10) of the 99th FS, 42-10461 (A-19) of the 99th, 42-10476 (#89) of the 319th FS all of which have long tails, as well as other photos that haven't appeared in print or on ebay

Here's one of those pesky first 50 "Short" tailed L models - see an issue?

Buz

 

[ColFord]

You are right about the timeline for 3 Sqn RAAF, but my source (Squadron! publications #18, the Curtiss Kittyhawk Mk II) does not agree with you about 260 RAF, which they say used the type from August 1942 until April-May 1943.

Let me just reinforce what Buz has said, there are a number of publications around with out of date, inaccurate or incomplete material in them - often as a result of those who author and publish them wanting to push out books at a fairly high rate so the level of research is not to the same level as those who specialise in a particular subject area - aircraft type, service, unit, command, etc and do deep research into that subject area. Let me say that my own experiences with having viewed a few of the RAF and Commonwealth Mustang titles from that same series have not left me impressed.

Then we run into the problem of inaccurate information from one book getting quoted/repeated in another, then another author sees the same 'facts' quoted in two books, "so they must be right" which then leads to three inaccurate books...... and then they get cited in Wiki..... all without an ounce of original research going back to original source primary documentation.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Let me just also say at the outset that this issue of British use of the P-40F/L / Merlin engine types is a very tricky one to nail down. I

Kittyhawk IIA = P-40F, Kittyhawk II = P-40L, 100 F (short tail), 56 L-5 and 44 L-10 (both long tail) models, delivered in US for RAF, F from April to July 1942, L January to March 1943, 2 F to UK, 21 F lost at sea leaving 227 for the Middle East. The P-40F long tail came with the -5 block, in August 1942, all up 512 long tail F versions, 699 short tail.

US export P-40F for UK, starting with 38 in May 1942, Takoradi reports end July 1942 total 124 Kittyhawk I sent, still 124 Kittyhawk sent end September, October saw 46 Kittyhawk II sent. October 2 Kittyhawk II, 23 III. Kittyhawk were also being shipped directly to Egypt from the US.

Then comes possible distribution in the Middle East between RAF, RAAF and SAAF squadrons. Strength return 30 September 1942, 13 Kittyhawk II in squadrons, 9 in store/repair, 1 in a conversion unit. As of 31 October it was 19 in squadrons, 32 store/repair, as of 30 November it was 25 in squadrons, 90 store/repair, 7 lost during the month, total 122 out of 127 F models reported sent to Middle East, note no break down of losses by mark in September and October.

Looking through Shores et al, 260 squadron was using Kittyhawk I in September 1942, squadron records use Kittyhawks without mentioning serials or marks until 21 August when Kittyhawk (P-40F) appears, by the look of things after that come a few entries with II suggesting they are mark II. For September the mark numbers are made clear and mark II are the majority, in October only mark II sorties.

RAF Squadrons by Jefford, 260 squadron,
Kittyhawk I February to September 1942 (plus some Tomahawks until March) replacing Hurricanes
Kittyhawk II June 1942 to May 1943
Kittyhawk III December 1942 to March 1944.

There was a general upheaval of aircraft allocations through 1942, as the US entered the war and needed to support units in combat. One attempt to reset things was [Washington,] 21 June 1942. Memorandum of Agreement Between Lt. Gen. Arnold, Rear Admiral Towers and Air Chief Marshal Portal. No one stuck exactly to the agreements.

But part of the problem was also due to the specific details of the licensing agreement between Rolls Royce and Packard, which only produced a relatively small number of the Merlin 28 / XX copy / V-1650-1 types, and a certain number of these had to go to Canada for British aircraft types (most ended up not seeing combat, I think) with the bulk of Packard-Merlin production going to the Merlin 60 series for the P-51 (and some other types).

Licensing had nothing to do with the quantity ordered/built.

To switch to the Ministry of Aircraft Production figures for US Merlins, 12,292 built to end 1943 (the US says 12,295, 1 less in April, 4 more in July 1943), 5,200 Merlin 28 from August 1941 to February 1943, 480 Merlin 29 for Canada, 560 Merlin 31 from March 1942 to February 1943, 800 Merlin 33 April to October 1943, 6,862 Merlin 38 from March 1943 with production ongoing, plus 16 two stage engines, all for the Commonwealth while the US received 2,813 one stage August 1941 to March 1943 and 2,781 two stage (5 November/December 1942, then from March 1943). The US 1 stage were mostly for the 2,011 P-40F and L, or about a 40% reserve, engine and airframe orders matched.

Canada received 309 Merlin 28, all were exported to Britain, either as stand alone or attached mostly to Hurricanes but some Lancaster, any arriving attached to Hurricanes, apart from some test flights, were removed and attached to Lancasters. UK Merlin 28 imports are reported to have ceased in July 1943, 5,165 shipped, 228 lost at sea, 4,937 arrivals.

Packard ceased 1 stage Merlin production in December 1944, by end August 1945 it had built 24,053 one stage and 30,661 two stage Merlins. Continental added another 797 two stage August 1944 to June 1945.

It's a bit confusing because of course Kittyhawk III to the British could mean the P-40M (rated for lower boost but with a higher performance ceiling of around 17,000 ft) or the P-40K

Mark III, 191 K-1 (the export version of the K, not really a block number) 52 K-5 (short fuselage), 46 K-10 (long fuselage introduced, September 1942), 50 K-15, 50 M-5, 44 M-10, the K delivered in the US June to November 1942, the M December 1942/January 1943. N model deliveries began in May 1943. Mark III distribution, 420 Middle East, 8 lost at sea, 5 SAAF (the latter cargo off loaded from a damaged ship)

Curtiss built 600 K-1, 200 K-5, 335 K-10, 165 K-15.

RAF serial FL2xx or FL3xx P-40F, FL7xx, FL8xx, FL9xx, FR111 to 115, FR2xx, FR3xx to 361 P-40K-1, FR116 to 140, FR385 to 392, 412, 413 K-5, FR414 is a K-10, the start of long tails, K-15 end at FR521, FR7xx, FR8xx P-40M, FS4xx P-40L.

RAF Census, Middle East Kittyhawk strength / lost overseas (mostly Middle East)
Feb-43 Mark I 207/284, Mark IA 174/83, Mark IIA 105/41, Mark III 202/73
Mar-43 Mark I 202/289, Mark IA 168/89, Mark IIA 94/51, Mark III 178/89
Apr-43 Mark I 199/?, Mark IA 166/?, Mark IIA 116/?, Mark III ?/98, page missing from report.
May-43 Mark I 198/293, Mark IA 166/91, Mark IIA 128/61, Mark III 208/100
Jun-43 Mark I 171/298, Mark IA 164/93, Mark IIA 129/59, Mark III 219/113
Jul-43 Mark I 170/299, Mark IA 163/94, Mark IIA 134/64, Mark III 218/117, Mark IV 14/5
Aug-43 Mark I 157/316, Mark IA 160/97, Mark IIA 130/68, Mark III 214/121, Mark IV 63/8
Sep-43 Mark I 157/316, Mark IA 160/97, Mark IIA 141/69, Mark III 227/134, Mark IV 135/14
Oct-43 Mark I 153/320, Mark IA 160/97, Mark IIA 144/70, Mark III 226/135, Mark IV 129/15
Nov-43 Mark I 153/320, Mark IA 155/102, Mark IIA 164/80, Mark III 219/148, Mark IV 126/26
Dec-43 Mark I 153/320, Mark IA 155/102, Mark IIA 165/79, Mark III 217/150, Mark IV 135/27
Jan-44 Mark I 166/307, Mark IA 156/100, Mark IIA 178/66, Mark III 239/128, Mark IV 329/30, aircraft with Dominion Air Forces now excluded.
Feb-44 Mark I 148/325, Mark IA 154/102, Mark IIA 175/71, Mark III 236/131, Mark IV 370/36
Mar-44 Mark I 94/379, Mark IA 105/151, Mark IIA 161/85, Mark III 229/138, Mark IV 414/49
Apr-44 Mark I 90/381, Mark IA 103/153, Mark IIA 161/85, Mark III 227/140, Mark IV 406/57
May-44 Mark I 62/409, Mark IA 96/160, Mark IIA 125/121, Mark III 171/196, Mark IV 388/76
Jun-44 Mark I 56/415, Mark IA 91/165, Mark IIA 123/123, Mark III 158/209, Mark IV 360/105

Anyway, the British rated the longer tails specifically regarding the stability issue. The Squadron book says they phased out the short tailed types and gave them to the French

As of end 1944 the US noted 23 P-40F and 40 P-40L transferred from Britain to France, no mention of K models., the US tracked the movements because there had to be a post war settlement.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Let me just reinforce what Buz has said, there are a number of publications around with out of date, inaccurate or incomplete material in them - often as a result of those who author and publish them wanting to push out books at a fairly high rate so the level of research is not to the same level as those who specialise in a particular subject area - aircraft type, service, unit, command, etc and do deep research into that subject area. Let me say that my own experiences with having viewed a few of the RAF and Commonwealth Mustang titles from that same series have not left me impressed.

Then we run into the problem of inaccurate information from one book getting quoted/repeated in another, then another author sees the same 'facts' quoted in two books, "so they must be right" which then leads to three inaccurate books...... and then they get cited in Wiki..... all without an ounce of original research going back to original source primary documentation.

Well they appear to be correct in this case. So I'm ok with it. They also give the tail numbers and pilot names etc. and seem to even look at Axis records somewhat for the operational history, (corresponding pretty well to what I can find in Shores Mediterranean Air War) so I give them a thumbs up for this particular book. Certainly more precise than what Osprey has on the subject.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Kittyhawk IIA = P-40F, Kittyhawk II = P-40L,

Pretty sure it was the other way around, Kittyhawk II was P-40F and Kittyhawk IIa (which came after, of course) was P-40L