Planes that just missed World War 2

[NTGray]

Both the Spitfire and the Bf-109 entered service several years before the war started, so their predecessors cannot really be said to have "just missed" the war. Actually, I cannot find a simple statement as to what plane the Spitfire replaced in front-line RAF service, except for one source that says the Spitfire superseded the Hurricane, and of course the Hurricane continued to serve after the war started and was no slouch.
But I'm still curious; what was Britain's front-line fighter before the Spitfire (or Hurricane)? I'm guessing the Bf-109 didn't really have one, since the Luftwaffe was being rebuilt from scratch during the 1930s, and its "predecessor" would have been something left over from The Great War. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I did some checking, because I was pretty sure that the XF4F-1 was either a Wildcat or did not have a name at the time. Sure enough, the Grumman Gulfhawk was a similar but different plane.

From the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum website:

"One of the most exciting aerobatic aircraft of the 1930s and '40s, the Grumman Gulfhawk II was built for retired naval aviator and air show pilot Al Williams. As head of the Gulf Oil Company's aviation department, Williams flew in military and civilian air shows around the country, performing precision aerobatics and dive-bombing maneuvers to promote military aviation during the interwar years.
The sturdy civilian biplane, with its strong aluminum monocoque fuselage and Wright Cyclone engine, nearly matched the Grumman F3F standard Navy fighter, which was operational at the time. It took its orange paint scheme from Williams' Curtiss 1A Gulfhawk, also in the Smithsonian's collection. Williams personally piloted the Gulfhawk II on its last flight in 1948 to Washington's National Airport."

View attachment 661583

The Canadians may have used their Grummans in WW2 combat had the opportunity arose.

Canadian Warplanes 1: Canadian Car & Foundry (Grumman) Goblin

Harold writes articles on Canadian military history, including Military Parachuting, Warplanes, Armour and Artillery, Castles, Fortifications, Sieges and Battles, Warships, The Cold War, Women in the Canadian Forces, First Nations and Black Canadian Military Service. Each article is supported by...

www.silverhawkauthor.com

 

[buffnut453]

Both the Spitfire and the Bf-109 entered service several years before the war started, so their predecessors cannot really be said to have "just missed" the war. Actually, I cannot find a simple statement as to what plane the Spitfire replaced in front-line RAF service, except for one source that says the Spitfire superseded the Hurricane, and of course the Hurricane continued to serve after the war started and was no slouch.
But I'm still curious; what was Britain's front-line fighter before the Spitfire (or Hurricane)? I'm guessing the Bf-109 didn't really have one, since the Luftwaffe was being rebuilt from scratch during the 1930s, and its "predecessor" would have been something left over from The Great War. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Front-line fighter types before the Hurricane and Spitfire were the Hawker Fury, Hawker Demon, Gloster Gauntlet, and Gloster Gladiator. All except the Demon were still in frontline use at the outbreak of WW2 and so cannot be considered to have "missed" the conflict. Prior to those, we had the Armstrong Whitworth Siskin Bristol Bulldog but they both pretty much out of service by 1937-1938.

 

[MikeMeech]

Both the Spitfire and the Bf-109 entered service several years before the war started, so their predecessors cannot really be said to have "just missed" the war. Actually, I cannot find a simple statement as to what plane the Spitfire replaced in front-line RAF service, except for one source that says the Spitfire superseded the Hurricane, and of course the Hurricane continued to serve after the war started and was no slouch.
But I'm still curious; what was Britain's front-line fighter before the Spitfire (or Hurricane)? I'm guessing the Bf-109 didn't really have one, since the Luftwaffe was being rebuilt from scratch during the 1930s, and its "predecessor" would have been something left over from The Great War. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Hi
The fighters the Spitfire (and Hurricane) replaced were the Gloster Gauntlet and Gladiator bi-planes (both did see service during WW2). The Bf 109 replaced the Arado AR 65 and 68 and also the Heinkel HE 51 bi-planes. None of these fighter bi-planes in the Luftwaffe or RAF were "left over" from WW1.

Mike

 

[NTGray]

Front-line fighter types before the Hurricane and Spitfire were the Hawker Fury, Hawker Demon, Gloster Gauntlet, and Gloster Gladiator. All except the Demon were still in frontline use at the outbreak of WW2 and so cannot be considered to have "missed" the conflict. Prior to those, we had the Armstrong Whitworth Siskin Bristol Bulldog but they both pretty much out of service by 1937-1938.

Did the Fury and the rest see any substantial action in the BoB? What about by '42?

 

[buffnut453]

Did the Fury and the rest see any substantial action in the BoB? What about by '42?

There were no Hawker Fury units during the Battle of Britain but the Fury did equip units elsewhere, notably with the South African Air Force in East Africa during 1941, which included getting at least 2 confirmed kills.

The Gauntlet was still in use by 616 Sqn within Fighter Command at the outbreak of WW2 but was rapidly replaced. Some Gauntlets saw extended but limited front-line use through 1940 in the Middle East (3 Sqn RAAF having one flight equipped with the type), and a few were retained for meteorological flights (but that wasn't considered an operational mission).

The Gladiator served during the Battle of Britain, while 263 Sqn also saw service in Norway. The defence of Malta is the best-remembered use of the type in the fighter role but it was also used extensively in North Africa, East Africa, and the Middle East throughout 1941.

Please note these are just usage of these types by the RAF but they remained in front-line service with other countries long after the RAF had relegated them to second-line roles. Yugoslavia, Iran and other countries had the Fury, while Finland and others had the Gauntlet and Gladiator. For example, the last Gladiator kill was recorded in Finland in February 1943.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Did the Fury and the rest see any substantial action in the BoB? What about by '42?

If the Buffalo wasn't available perhaps the Gauntlets and Furys go to Malaya in 1940-41.

 

[unkated]

Going with this thread, I do wonder how the P-36, had we continued to build a bunch more of the C model, might have done in the Pacific. The larger engine and additional wing weapons would have made it better than the A model I'd think.

Depends on what you would have it face. A few P-36Cs fought at Pearl Harbor vs A6M2 Zeros. A few export models fought for China against A5Ms (Japan's previous naval fighter). Mohawks (P-36Cs exported as kits and assembled in India) for a short while were the RAF's only defense in Eastern India and a few encounters vs Ki.27s. While outclassed by the Zero, Hawk 75s (P-36s) stood technologically even vs the same generation of Japanese monoplane fighters.

Thai export Hawk 75s almost fought (cannonless) MS.406s over Indochina in January 1941; they simply did not meet.

H75A-1s (P-36As exported to France) fought Bf109E-3s over France in May/June 1940 - and fought F4Fs over Casablanca in November 1942. While at a technologic disadvantage, they were not mere pushovers.

Uncle Ted

 

[wlewisiii]

P-36A's were at Pearl. The few C models were all stateside.

 

[Shortround6]

Going with this thread, I do wonder how the P-36, had we continued to build a bunch more of the C model, might have done in the Pacific. The larger engine and additional wing weapons would have made it better than the A model I'd think.

More P-36s means fewer P-40s.
From 1940
Month.................P-36...............P-40
April.....................83..................0......
May......................76..................11...
June.....................95.................25....
July.......................91.................56....
Aug.......................14.................104
Sept.......................0...................114
Oct.........................0...................135
Nov........................0....................168
Dec........................0....................165

The P-36 numbers include or cover the Export Hawk 75.

 

[wlewisiii]

True enough. Perhaps pay Bell to build P-36's instead of P-39s?

 

[Shortround6]

True enough. Perhaps pay Bell to build P-36's instead of P-39s?

Where would they put the nose armor

 

[buffnut453]

Where would they put the nose armor

In here?

For the uninitiated, it's the XP-42 adaptation of a P-36 with streamlined cowling but still powered by a radial engine.

 

[GregP]

I believe the successor to the Gulfhawk 2 was the G-58A, a civilian version of the Bearcat. There were no provisions in the wings for guns or cannons.

View attachment 661585

I believe that is Al Williams at the controls.

Photo: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archives

That aircraft has been restored to flight status and is now at the Planes of Fame in blue U.S. Navy colors.

 

[GregP]

Seems like some interest, so here's the restored Bearcat's first flight. Many components from Al William's aircraft.



And here it as after paint:



Nice warbird! Note when Steve Hinton starts it, he lets 12 blades got past before bringing the throttle off idle stop, to make sure the bottom pistons are scavenged of oil as much as possible. Great job on a really nice airplane by Steve and his company, Fighter Rebuilders.

 

[Dash119]

A data plate restoration. I believe the actual G-58B is with the Palm Springs Air Museum.

 

[GrauGeist]

While at a technologic disadvantage, they were not mere pushovers.

The P-36 was a contemporary of the Bf109 and in French service, accounted for more Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of France than any other type.

 

[GregP]

There were two private G-58s built, the G-58A and the G-58B.

The first one was the G-58A, owned by Gulf Oil and flown by Al Williams. This is the Bearcat at the Planes of Fame and it is privately owned by several people as a group.

The second one was the G-58B and was used by Grumman and was generally flown by Roger Wolfe Kahn. The G-58B is based at Palm Springs.

 

[MiTasol]

The USN/USMC came very close to using the F3F in combat, as it was in frontline squadrons until 1941.

And the Hawker Demon was the RAAFs top fighter in Australia until the P-40s and other US aircraft arrived in 1942 as a result of Pearl Harbor, followed closely by Beaufighters and Spitfires. Interestingly a month after Pearl Harbor the RAAF made its first Pacific war purchase. Catalinas. Official history says the Demons were relegated to Sqdn hack duties before WW2 but look at what Australian based fighter squadrons had what aircraft in December 41 and all you find are Demons and Wirraways.

Many people of the day were calling the Wirraway a fighter because it was faster than the Demon.