PLEASE OFFER YOUR HONEST OPINIONS...

[stona]

Without boring everyone to death, I will just point out that radiocarbon dating only works on organic material that was once alive and either absorbing carbon, in carbon dioxide, from the atmosphere (as in a general sense, plants), or by eating said plants (as in a general sense, animals).

Cheers

Steve (I was a chemist!)

 

[pbehn]

Without boring everyone to death, I will just point out that radiocarbon dating only works on organic material that was once alive and either absorbing carbon, in carbon dioxide, from the atmosphere (as in a general sense, plants), or by eating said plants (as in a general sense, animals).

Cheers

Steve (I was a chemist!)

Some things can be dated by a radioactive isotopes presence or not as being before or after Hiroshima Nagasaki and air tests of nuclear weapons.

 

[MiTasol]

This is an interesting article on the plunder of WWII pcean floor wrecks in the Indonesian archipelago

Wartime shipwrecks are being illegally salvaged. Are we powerless to stop it?

The wreck of the HMAS Sydney was only found in March 2008 off Western Australia and already has suffered the same fate

 

[pbehn]

I agree to an extent, but I think at some point because of historical value it does belong in a museum. But I do see your point and understand it.

I remember when the Tutankhamun exhibition came to London. An expert explained that the Egyptians hid his tomb, so they searched for it. They sealed it up and the seal was broken. Tutankhamun was placed in a gold sarcophagus and mummified to protect the body and so the sarcophagus was opened and the body unwrapped then examined with photos and the body on display. It was complete disrespect for a dead person like a public dissection. The excuse is to obtain knowledge but the expeditions cost a fortune to mount. If the Pharaohs were buried in wooden boxes surrounded by nothing of worth the expeditions wouldn't have been mounted because no treasure and fame would have resulted from it.

Near my home there is the tomb of St Cuthbert, a Saint from early Christian England. His resting place has been changed vandalised robbed and changed many times since he died in 687. In 1104 a tiny gospel was removed and is now in the British library. The people who put it in were Christians and the people who took it out were Christians. Even in one of the holiest sites in UK being "laid to rest" only means being put aside until curiosity gets the better of us.

I understand things have historical value and interest but I don't understand a side of humanity that has to take and own things associated with the dead. When something is declared a war grave most respect it but some are even more determined to explore it with the Holy Grail being the ships bell.

There is a priory at Guisborough, near my home where the first and second Lords of Annandale are buried. They were both called Robert de Brus, the sixth Lord of Annandale became Robert de Brus the first of Scotland. No one knows where in Guiborough they are buried and no one really looks because it isn't worth it. I prefer for them to remain where they are at rest as they are supposed to be rather than dug up with anything of interest removed for display with the bones re buried as if they were unknown victims of a plague.
St Cuthbert's coffin features in new display at Durham Cathedral.

 

[stona]

Some things can be dated by a radioactive isotopes presence or not as being before or after Hiroshima Nagasaki and air tests of nuclear weapons.

That may well be possible, I've no idea what particular isotopes they would look for, but that wouldn't be radiocarbon dating.

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

That may well be possible, I've no idea what particular isotopes they would look for, but that wouldn't be radiocarbon dating.

Cheers

Steve

It is definitely possible but I don't know if it possible on metal.
Nuclear Weapons Tests and Environmental Consequences: A Global Perspective

 

[mikewint]

I'm with Steve and we have similar backgrounds in this. C-14 dating is for biologic materials. The process of radiocarbon dating measures the ratio of C-14 (radioactive) to C-12. C-14 has a half life of 5,730 YEARS so even if this were a valid method in this case it would be like trying to measure the diameter of a hair with a yard (meter) stick. For the same reason metal isotope decays would also be to crude to measure something so recent in time. AND even IF you could date the fragment to this period it would prove nothing.

The best that could be done here is similar to (Old can of worms) the TIGHAR researches on Gardner (Nikumaroro) Island for Earhart's Electra. Many pieces of aluminum alloy have been found there and the metal can be analysed and its composition determined. That composition can then be compared to the various aluminum alloys used in aircraft construction at the time the Electra was built. If the compositions match, even if exactly, ALL you can say is that the piece COULD have come from the aircraft in question. Since more than one aircraft was made with that blend of metals.
Bottom line, unless you have a serial number....

 

[pbehn]

I'm with Steve and we have similar backgrounds in this. C-14 dating is for biologic materials. The process of radiocarbon dating measures the ratio of C-14 (radioactive) to C-12. C-14 has a half life of 5,730 YEARS so even if this were a valid method in this case it would be like trying to measure the diameter of a hair with a yard (meter) stick. For the same reason metal isotope decays would also be to crude to measure something so recent in time. AND even IF you could date the fragment to this period it would prove nothing.
....

I agree with both yourself and Steve, I was discussing radioactive contamination not radiocarbon dating.

 

[DAI PHAN]

I'm with Steve and we have similar backgrounds in this. C-14 dating is for biologic materials. The process of radiocarbon dating measures the ratio of C-14 (radioactive) to C-12. C-14 has a half life of 5,730 YEARS so even if this were a valid method in this case it would be like trying to measure the diameter of a hair with a yard (meter) stick. For the same reason metal isotope decays would also be to crude to measure something so recent in time. AND even IF you could date the fragment to this period it would prove nothing.

The best that could be done here is similar to (Old can of worms) the TIGHAR researches on Gardner (Nikumaroro) Island for Earhart's Electra. Many pieces of aluminum alloy have been found there and the metal can be analysed and its composition determined. That composition can then be compared to the various aluminum alloys used in aircraft construction at the time the Electra was built. If the compositions match, even if exactly, ALL you can say is that the piece COULD have come from the aircraft in question. Since more than one aircraft was made with that blend of metals.
Bottom line, unless you have a serial number....

I wonder how much this would cost? I want to find out. Dai

 

[stona]

I wonder how much this would cost? I want to find out. Dai

I assume you mean an analysis of the material. I have no idea how much that would cost, but it wouldn't prove anything decisively anyway.

The best result would show that it was material used in the construction of Japanese aircraft during the relevant period. It won't prove that the artefact is what it is purporting to be. There must be tons of that stuff littered around the Pacific.

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

I assume you mean an analysis of the material. I have no idea how much that would cost, but it wouldn't prove anything decisively anyway.

The best result would show that it was material used in the construction of Japanese aircraft during the relevant period. It won't prove that the artefact is what it is purporting to be. There must be tons of that stuff littered around the Pacific.

Cheers

Steve

The tests are actually cheap to run, that doesn't mean that they are cheap because the equipment costs a fortune. The big problem is finding someone with the expertise to make the judgement, in practice you will get a lot of provisos and caveats that amount to a very big "It could be but then again it may not be"

 

[mikewint]

That I cannot answer. BUT for just $19,500 you can pick up your own Xsort Alloy XRF Analyser on Ebay:

 

[parsifal]

i hope that they throw in complementary steak knives at that price

 

[mikewint]

This wreck is located in the jungle near Moila Point, a few kilometers off the Panguna-Buin road near Aku. A path has been cut through the jungle to the site and requires an hour walk from the main road. Today, the wreck is closely guarded from theft or removal of any souvenirs.
Since the 1960s, Japanese delegations have visited the crash site, and erected a memorial plaque on the admiral's seat, and often leave memorial sticks at the site.
The fuselage door, a section of the outer wing and Yamamoto's seat were recovered from the crash site during the 1970s. Other smaller relics were also salvaged, including one of the control columns, and the aircraft's manufacture number stencil were in the possession of RAAF 183rd Reconnaissance Flight, Pacific Island Regiment, based at Lae during the 1970s (the fate of these items today is unknown).
The fuselage door, outer wing panel and seat were donated and were displayed at The Air Museum of Papua New Guinea until it closed in the late 1970s and were transferred to the PNG Museum. In the 1990s, the outer wing panel and seat were placed on permanent loan to the Isoroku Yamamoto Memorial Hall & Museum.

Richard Rudd recalls visiting the site in October 1968:
"While on an aerial mapping project, based out of Buin in October.1968 and the 'kiaps' at the time, (Australians), whilst imbibing and in conversation at the Buin Club, mentioned that a couple of weeks prior to our arrival, they had escorted a group of Japanese, complete with maps and WWII drawings to try and relocate the crash site. Which they did. We asked if it would be possible to be guided there again and when their time permitted, we drove up the coast/ inland track, getting permissions from various villages, until we quit the road and hiked off into the jungle for an hour or so. First sight was a wing, with Hinomaru leaning against a forest tree, a flap? and then the bulk of the rear fuselage and engines. Much forward was all crushed and burnt and the Admirals seat by the rear door. In the jungle quiet, it was a sad scene to contemplate. Author Terry Gynne-Jones did a comprehensive article, with excellent color pictures in GEO magazine in the late 1970s"

Japanese ambassador to PNG HE Hiroharu Iwasaki with Deputy Director of National Planning

 

[DAI PHAN]

This wreck is located in the jungle near Moila Point, a few kilometers off the Panguna-Buin road near Aku. A path has been cut through the jungle to the site and requires an hour walk from the main road. Today, the wreck is closely guarded from theft or removal of any souvenirs.
Since the 1960s, Japanese delegations have visited the crash site, and erected a memorial plaque on the admiral's seat, and often leave memorial sticks at the site.
The fuselage door, a section of the outer wing and Yamamoto's seat were recovered from the crash site during the 1970s. Other smaller relics were also salvaged, including one of the control columns, and the aircraft's manufacture number stencil were in the possession of RAAF 183rd Reconnaissance Flight, Pacific Island Regiment, based at Lae during the 1970s (the fate of these items today is unknown).
The fuselage door, outer wing panel and seat were donated and were displayed at The Air Museum of Papua New Guinea until it closed in the late 1970s and were transferred to the PNG Museum. In the 1990s, the outer wing panel and seat were placed on permanent loan to the Isoroku Yamamoto Memorial Hall & Museum.

Richard Rudd recalls visiting the site in October 1968:
"While on an aerial mapping project, based out of Buin in October.1968 and the 'kiaps' at the time, (Australians), whilst imbibing and in conversation at the Buin Club, mentioned that a couple of weeks prior to our arrival, they had escorted a group of Japanese, complete with maps and WWII drawings to try and relocate the crash site. Which they did. We asked if it would be possible to be guided there again and when their time permitted, we drove up the coast/ inland track, getting permissions from various villages, until we quit the road and hiked off into the jungle for an hour or so. First sight was a wing, with Hinomaru leaning against a forest tree, a flap? and then the bulk of the rear fuselage and engines. Much forward was all crushed and burnt and the Admirals seat by the rear door. In the jungle quiet, it was a sad scene to contemplate. Author Terry Gynne-Jones did a comprehensive article, with excellent color pictures in GEO magazine in the late 1970s"
View attachment 469250
Japanese ambassador to PNG HE Hiroharu Iwasaki with Deputy Director of National Planning

I am surprised that I have the ownership of the relic if indeed real. Dai

 

[mikewint]

Unfortunately without a serial number or a documented "Chain of Custody" there is no way to say for certain. A metallurgical analysis could tell you IF the alloy content matches the alloys used at the time by the Japanese BUT that still does not prove it is actually from Yamamoto's Betty.
Just as an aside: you can also buy pieces of the "True Cross" on Ebay AND various relics of various Saints (Human remains not allowed by Ebay)
Advice as old as time: Caveat Emptor

 

[DAI PHAN]

Unfortunately without a serial number or a documented "Chain of Custody" there is no way to say for certain. A metallurgical analysis could tell you IF the alloy content matches the alloys used at the time by the Japanese BUT that still does not prove it is actually from Yamamoto's Betty.
Just as an aside: you can also buy pieces of the "True Cross" on Ebay AND various relics of various Saints (Human remains not allowed by Ebay)
Advice as old as time: Caveat Emptor
View attachment 469268

I think if a dealer/seller is selling such important artifacts he/she would have secured some proof that it actually is the real thing don't you think? DP

 

[DAI PHAN]

This wreck is located in the jungle near Moila Point, a few kilometers off the Panguna-Buin road near Aku. A path has been cut through the jungle to the site and requires an hour walk from the main road. Today, the wreck is closely guarded from theft or removal of any souvenirs.
Since the 1960s, Japanese delegations have visited the crash site, and erected a memorial plaque on the admiral's seat, and often leave memorial sticks at the site.
The fuselage door, a section of the outer wing and Yamamoto's seat were recovered from the crash site during the 1970s. Other smaller relics were also salvaged, including one of the control columns, and the aircraft's manufacture number stencil were in the possession of RAAF 183rd Reconnaissance Flight, Pacific Island Regiment, based at Lae during the 1970s (the fate of these items today is unknown).
The fuselage door, outer wing panel and seat were donated and were displayed at The Air Museum of Papua New Guinea until it closed in the late 1970s and were transferred to the PNG Museum. In the 1990s, the outer wing panel and seat were placed on permanent loan to the Isoroku Yamamoto Memorial Hall & Museum.

Richard Rudd recalls visiting the site in October 1968:
"While on an aerial mapping project, based out of Buin in October.1968 and the 'kiaps' at the time, (Australians), whilst imbibing and in conversation at the Buin Club, mentioned that a couple of weeks prior to our arrival, they had escorted a group of Japanese, complete with maps and WWII drawings to try and relocate the crash site. Which they did. We asked if it would be possible to be guided there again and when their time permitted, we drove up the coast/ inland track, getting permissions from various villages, until we quit the road and hiked off into the jungle for an hour or so. First sight was a wing, with Hinomaru leaning against a forest tree, a flap? and then the bulk of the rear fuselage and engines. Much forward was all crushed and burnt and the Admirals seat by the rear door. In the jungle quiet, it was a sad scene to contemplate. Author Terry Gynne-Jones did a comprehensive article, with excellent color pictures in GEO magazine in the late 1970s"
View attachment 469250
Japanese ambassador to PNG HE Hiroharu Iwasaki with Deputy Director of National Planning

So he sat in the rear of the airplane? I always thought he sat behind the pilots? DP

 

[gumbyk]

You're taking your life into your hands if you try to even visit crash sites in PNG now. Yamamoto's plane may be different, but I'm fairly sure you'd have to get permission from everyone you came across. Even then there's no guarantee that you won't come across someone who doesn't want you there and takes matters into his own hands.
Visiting other sites (even with government permission) is nearly impossible. I have friends who spent a few nights in PNG jail because they wanted to just visit sites and film. They had permission from one government department, but were told they didn't need any more permissions. Guess the advice they got was wrong, and they didn't pay the right bribes.

 

[mikewint]

I can't site a source but my impression is that he was seated in the rear of the aircraft. At the nearest Japanese Army post at Aku, Lt. Hamasuna observed smoke from the crash. At first, he believed it was an American airplane crash and he led a group of twelve to the crash site, and was the first to arrive the following day. Next, a Japanese Navy patrol was sent to the site to recover the Admiral's body. When they arrived, they found Yamamoto's sword and Admiral rank insignia (shoulder bars) missing. They have never been located to this day.
After the crash, a Japanese Navy patrol that recovered Yamamoto's body and transported his remains to the 1st Base Command at Buin, where an autopsy was preformed on April 20, 1943. Many published accounts state Yamamoto died in his seat. Yamamoto had been thrown clear of the plane's wreckage, his white-gloved hand grasping the hilt of his katana sword, his body still upright in his seat under a tree. Hamasuna said Yamamoto was instantly recognizable, his head tilted down as if deep in thought. A post-mortem of Yamamoto's body indicated two bullet wounds, one to the back of his left shoulder, and a separate bullet wound to his left lower jaw, that appeared to exit above his right eye. The Japanese navy doctor examining Yamamoto's body determined the head wound killed Yamamoto. (These more violent details of Yamamoto's death were hidden from the Japanese public.
Afterwards, Yamamoto's body wearing his uniform was cremated and some of his remains were buried at Buin. Part of his ashes were flown aboard a G4M1 Betty from Buin Airfield (Kahili) to Rabaul and Truk where his ashes were transferred to Battleship Musashi and transported to Tokyo arriving on May 3, 1943 when news of Yamamoto's death was officially reported to the Japanese press as "having died in combat aboard an aircraft". On June 5, Yamamoto received a state funeral in Tokyo. His remains were buried at Tama Cemetery, and a portion given to his wife and buried at his family shrine in Nagaoka.