Prop blade ID help, please

[Larrythepilot]

The Freeman Army Airfield Museum in Seymour, Indiana, USA, has been cleaning up a WWII propeller blade. There is lots of information on the hub end of the blade, but the person who has been working on it is unable to "connect the dots"; that is, figure out what airplane/engine the propeller came from. Can anyone here help us? Thank you. A picture of the hub end is attached.

 

[special ed]

The symbol W.Nr. indicates it is a German blade as it stands for Werk Numer with the serial No. of the blade. There are those here who will be able to tell more.

 

[ThomasP]

The 9-12004.10 indicates it is almost certainly from a Bf109F-3 or -4 airframe (or maybe a -5 & -6 reconnaissance variant?) with the DB601E engine. I say almost certainly because there may have been airframes that used the same prop/prop blades as the Bf109F-3 or -4 that have not yet been documented, or that the documentation has been lost. However, the information indicating it is from the Bf109F-3 or -4 is from official RLM documents.

 

[Wurger]

I agree. The VDM prop blade used for the Bf 109F-4

 

[Larrythepilot]

The symbol W.Nr. indicates it is a German blade as it stands for Werk Numer with the serial No. of the blade. There are those here who will be able to tell more.

Thank you, Special Ed. I'll have patience and wait to see if others on the forum come up with additional information. That blade was buried out here for some 50 years, and has been in storage for another 30 years awaiting cleaning and identification. We are interested, but in no great rush.

 

[Engineman]

Very nice Larry!
I agree, this 9-12004.10 is a blade from a Bf 109 F-3 or -4. This was designed for the new DB 601 E engine with a larger diameter propshaft spline and with the integrated VDM pitch change drive as part of the front engine case, rather than the earlier versions with an external VDM gear unit bolted to the front of a DB 601 A or N. The new Hub assembly was the 9-12010.21 and the complete propeller assembly (gerät) was a 9-12010 A. The overall prop diameter was 3.0m.
I see your photo shows the blade on a hub with a backplate. I can help with hub Identification, decode and location of the stamped data if you wish?
This blade is only listed for the Bf 109 F-3 or -4, but those aircraft types could also be fitted with the slightly later Bf 109 G prop type 9-12087 A. The VDM manual says that the F-3/4 had to have rear cooler armour to have the G propeller. However, I understand that the Bf 109 F-4Z (with GM-1 high altitude power boost) also had the 9-12087 A prop.
Please ask if you want more info.

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Very nice Larry!
I agree, this 9-12004.10 is a blade from a Bf 109 F-3 or -4. This was designed for the new DB 601 E engine with a larger diameter propshaft spline and with the integrated VDM pitch change drive as part of the front engine case, rather than the earlier versions with an external VDM gear unit bolted to the front of a DB 601 A or N. The new Hub assembly was the 9-12010.21 and the complete propeller assembly (gerät) was a 9-12010 A. The overall prop diameter was 3.0m.
I see your photo shows the blade on a hub with a backplate. I can help with hub Identification, decode and location of the stamped data if you wish?
This blade is only listed for the Bf 109 F-3 or -4, but those aircraft types could also be fitted with the slightly later Bf 109 G prop type 9-12087 A. The VDM manual says that the F-3/4 had to have rear cooler armour to have the G propeller. However, I understand that the Bf 109 F-4Z (with GM-1 high altitude power boost) also had the 9-12087 A prop.
Please ask if you want more info.

Eng

Thank you, Engineman. I passed the info along to the person who is working on the propeller project. In due time, the prop blade will find it's way into our Bf-109/DB-601 display. I'll post a picture when we get that far.

The reason it has taken me so long to acknowledge your detailed reply to my request is that tomorrow is our annual Museum Airplane Ride Day fund-raising event. I have been very busy with arrangements to put this thing on. But please know that our museum greatly appreciates your help.

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

Thank you for your generous reply. I hope that your Museum fund-raising day goes well!
Please don't hesitate to ask for more info. The Bf 109 F-4 blade is fairly rare as it was bespoke to that version with the DB 601 E engine. The prop hub on the F-4 was also only applicable to the F-4 and it should be the 9-12010.21 hub. Surprisingly, that hub was not used on the Bf 109 G with the same propshaft and VDM gearing, nor on the versions of Bf 110 with the DB 601 F engine which also has the same propshaft and VDM gearing.
I look forward to any more queries!

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

A week or so ago Engineman ID'd a prop for us (goes on a Bf-109), and back in January he provided information on Bf-109 landing gear. Wurger was also involved in those 2 inquiries. Prior to that, one of you (Wurger?) provided the tire size for the tailwheel of a Bf-109. Thanks in part to the help from all of you, our Bf-109/DB-601 display has been greatly improved over the past year. Since I have mentioned the Bf-109 and DB-601 display several times when making inquiries, I thought you might like to see what we have on display. I have included 2 pictures below. An HVAC unit separates the wing panel with (mock-up) cannon from the rest of the items. In the interest of staying on-point, I didn't photograph the HVAC. ..... Before Don points it out, we know the DB-601 cylinder bank sitting on the table is upside-down. We're working on a fixture to display it in the proper orientation.

 

[Wurger]

Really. a nice exibition ... .

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

Great displays. There are lots of items there that are possible to ID. I will try to write a few clues from what I can see. As always, physical examination is best,
but numbers can be crucial, often just knowing which numbers and where to look!
I think your collection is important, I believe many of the captured aircraft are known-of and were carefully assessed.

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Hi Larry,

Great displays. There are lots of items there that are possible to ID. I will try to write a few clues from what I can see. As always, physical examination is best,
but numbers can be crucial, often just knowing which numbers and where to look!
I think your collection is important, I believe many of the captured aircraft are known-of and were carefully assessed.

Eng

All of the items in the display pictures are already identified. We don't put things out for the public until we know what they are, and how they were used.

 

[Engineman]

All of the items in the display pictures are already identified. We don't put things out for the public until we know what they are, and how they were used.

Hi Larry,
I was going to ask if you knew what the long brown metal part is under the table on the cardboard box? Also, if you have a detail photo of all the numbers on the top of that
main bearing cap (sat next to the Bf 110 right-hand DB 601 A/N Cylinder block on the table)?

Cheers

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Hi Larry,
I was going to ask if you knew what the long brown metal part is under the table on the cardboard box? Also, if you have a detail photo of all the numbers on the top of that
main bearing cap (sat next to the Bf 110 right-hand DB 601 A/N Cylinder block on the table)?

Cheers

Eng

I don't know. The next time I'm at the museum, and have a little time, I'll pull the brown item out from under the table, and get a decent picture. I'll also get a close-up picture of the numbers on the main bearing cap. ..... Larry

 

[Larrythepilot]

I don't know. The next time I'm at the museum, and have a little time, I'll pull the brown item out from under the table, and get a decent picture. I'll also get a close-up picture of the numbers on the main bearing cap. ..... Larry

OK Eng, here you go. I was out at the museum this afternoon, and took some pictures. There are 2 pictures of the DB-601 bearing cap, and the numbers are very clear.

You asked about the "brown thing on the carboard box, under the table." You're right; I don't know what that is. Maybe somebody else with the museum does, but I don't. It is clearly sort of smashed. It appears to be either cooling or exhaust. There are 7

pictures of it. See what you make of it. ..... Thanks, Larry

 

[Larrythepilot]

I asked our museum president (retired Rolls-Royce engineer) about the "brown thing". He believes it is a deformed (squashed) valve cover for a DB-601 engine. Comparing the item to a picture of a good DB-601, that appears to be correct.

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

Well, the "brown thing" is actually a DB 601 E/F or a DB 605 or DB 610 engine intake manifold. These were the same item. Specifically, it is a Left hand inlet.
I enclose the parts page from a 1943 DB 605 manual. You can see this part is number 1, 9-601.050-701, it has this 601 part number as it is the same part
as designed for the DB 601 E/F. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to declare exactly which engine this came off, although there are differences in the attached
pipework on some types, but it is still tricky/impossible. Of note, the attached small bore pipework is the starting primer pipe, with the two Karcher spray nozzles
still fitted.
I shall get back to you about the bearing cap later today.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Engineman]

OK Eng, here you go. I was out at the museum this afternoon, and took some pictures. There are 2 pictures of the DB-601 bearing cap, and the numbers are very clear.

You asked about the "brown thing on the carboard box, under the table." You're right; I don't know what that is. Maybe somebody else with the museum does, but I don't. It is clearly sort of smashed. It appears to be either cooling or exhaust. There are 7View attachment 784192View attachment 784193View attachment 784194View attachment 784195View attachment 784196View attachment 784197View attachment 784198View attachment 784199View attachment 784200 pictures of it. See what you make of it. ..... Thanks, Larry

Hi again Larry,

So, this main bearing cap is from a DB 601 E/F or a DB 605. A little strangely, the alloy block of this part remained the same but the attached main bearing shell did change
between the two engine types. You should find cast into the alloy block, either front or back the part number 9-601.104-065 or possibly ending instead; -065.12 or -065.92
or -065.8 or -065.9 as these are oversizes. There could be other numbers and I would be interested to see the cast-in numbers.
So thanks for the pictures, what can we see? This is stamped "1" which is the front bearing cap and it has the extra cast arch on the front face that closes over the large roller bearing for the reduction gear Pinion rear bearing track. Next, the 6/1942 is what it appears to be, the date of engine assembly/build. Finally, there is the clear number "14366" which is the
Werk-Nr ie the engine serial number. These details are a little tricky. On that date, the build of DB 601 E/F engine had almost finished and some 2,500 or so DB 605's had been built.
I have a cross-reference on a DB 610 E engine 14259 from a Bf 109 F-4 and that would look likely to show 14366 could be just 107 engines later.
However, this detail is thin on further data.
So, the bottom line is that this could be from either a late D 601 E/F, or an early DB 605 A, only a very detailed study of the bearing shell could confirm. Or, possibly more data
from someone like Steve Sheflin on this forum who has a large database.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

Well, the "brown thing" is actually a DB 601 E/F or a DB 605 or DB 610 engine intake manifold. These were the same item. Specifically, it is a Left hand inlet.
I enclose the parts page from a 1943 DB 605 manual. You can see this part is number 1, 9-601.050-701, it has this 601 part number as it is the same part
as designed for the DB 601 E/F. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to declare exactly which engine this came off, although there are differences in the attached
pipework on some types, but it is still tricky/impossible. Of note, the attached small bore pipework is the starting primer pipe, with the two Karcher spray nozzles
still fitted.
I shall get back to you about the bearing cap later today.

Cheers

EngView attachment 784933View attachment 784935

Hi Larry,

Just for interest, here is the Karcher primer nozzle, item 41 on the diagram. This is from a DB 605 that was in a peat bog, you can see how the
preservation conditions were very good.

Eng

 

[special ed]

A somewhat related off topic question, please. I have a pressure washer, brand name Karcher with umlot dots over the A. Could this be descended from the same company?