PVAF MiGs vs USAF and USN

[kettbo]

oh ya, played that LOTs...
Seattle Tacoma guys us a modified version of the Avalon Hill MUSTANGS boardgame with their miniatures. The system is ok for a few planes, drags lots with extended numbers. Thinking something more simple so I can get my SON interested and off the electronic game devises and instant gratification! Working some house rules, less technical but faster-paced. Have many hex mats for small tank battles, simply use them for air-to air

 

[kettbo]

went to the Library, checked out CLASHES by Mitchel again.

Bought AND KILL MIGS and AIR WAR VIETNAM pt III by Drendel for chump change at Half Price Books.
Real prize for $10 was VIETNAM AIR LOSSES by Chris Hobson. Year by year in order, all the aircraft losses. Includes air crew details and fate, assigned unit, brief summary etc Lots of statistical date too.

 

[kettbo]

Mitchel on p188-189 says some of the MiG-17 were outfitted for Atoll before LINEBACKER started. This is a really good book but (I am) still skeptical. Still looking for a pic of one of these bad boys. Also looking for an Engagement Summary or two citing the use of ATOLLs by a MiG-17

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Kettbo, check this out...

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a485056.pdf

 

[kettbo]

Great Stuff there FLYBOYJ. I saw a lot of this in Mitchel's book. Boy, I sure love statistical data.
I'll have to read that a few times~

SAM launch numbers may be lower than actual as they only counted what the US Forces saw

interesting vid despite some of the propaganda, stumbled onto this just today


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4EZNh4YvDc


Thanks again for the link,,,,got the Linebacker report?

 

[Matt308]

Propaganda? I'll say...

 

[kettbo]

oh yes, BS is laid on pretty darn thick across a large percentage of the vid. An interesting look from the other side however.

 

[steve51]

Has anyone seen any new information about the North Korean pilots that flew with the PVAF in the mid 60's?

 

[kettbo]

I know some N Koreans flew for some of the Arab countries in the 60s.

 

[steve51]

Kettbo,
You're quite right about that. A regiment of NK Mig 21's flew with the Egyptians for a period of time during the War of Attrition. Very little detail is known about their activities in Egypt, but even less is know about what they did in North Vietnam.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

North Korean Pilots in the Skies over Vietnam | Wilson Center

NORTH KOREAN PILOTS FOUGHT THE VIETNAM WAR

Last week, according to reports from Yonhap, the South Korean News Agency, there were many North Koreans military servicemen who fought the Vietnam War on the side of communist North Vietnam, and at least 14 of them were killed and buried in marked graves about 38 miles from Hanoi. Yonghap said 11 of the 14 Koreans were fighting as combat pilots, the other 3 were warplane mechanics. According to inscriptions on tombstones at the grave sites, they were killed by American bombs or were shot down over North Vietnam skies in mid-1967.

A Vietnamese communist local government official confirmed the direct participation of North Korea in the Vietnam War in a telephone interview.

"It's not a newly-found place. We built the grave a long time ago and every year people from the North Korean embassy in Hanoi come here to pay homage to the martyrs," he said as reported by Reuters.

As far back as 1967, there were information from North Vietnamese POWs and ralliers (or defectors, or chieu hoi) reported to the South Vietnamese intelligence agencies about North Korean fighter pilots in North Vietnam. The sources said that North Vietnamese were praising the North Koreans as the best jet pilots who often led the intercepting missions and brought down a lot of American warplanes, far better than North Vietnamese fighter pilots.

South Korean sources estimated that more than 800 North Korean Air Force military men were serving in North Vietnam before 1975.

The POWs and defectors also told stories about Soviet jet pilots in dogfights against the Americans over North Vietnam's skies. The Soviet pilots, as well as the North Koreans, always flew warplanes bearing North Vietnam colors.

Rumors, later confirmed, ran that some Soviet pilots' jets were shot down by the Americans and they landed safely by parachutes on the ground. The Soviet pilots never wore insignias or marks to tell that they were from the Soviet Union.

They were immediately arrested and were beaten to pulp by the militiamen in the area, most of whom didn't understand Russian. Some who could tell that the downed pilots were Russians usually beat them more brutally as if they had mistaken them for the Americans.

The question is why the South Koreans and the Vietnamese Communists chose this moment to disclose such an "already-known secret?"

http://www.vietquoc.com/apr01-00.htm

 

[kettbo]

Thanks again FlyboyJ. I missed this, have read lots about the air war.
So Marshal Mitchel missed this, Roger Boniface missed this, so did Istvan Toperczer? Not even hints.

Getting all into this...started a 1/285 F-105G WW scratchbuild

 

[steve51]

Thanks for the reply FLYBOYJ. The info in that article is apparently all there is out there. It would be nice to find some more data that could confirm it. If its accurate, it would indicate that some US losses that are attributed to NV pilots belong to NK pilots. The only admitted Soviet loss I know of was a Soviet instructor pilot and his NV student being downed after being caught by US planes. They both ejected and survived. The Soviet instructor pilot's name is known.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks for the reply FLYBOYJ. The info in that article is apparently all there is out there. It would be nice to find some more data that could confirm it. If its accurate, it would indicate that some US losses that are attributed to NV pilots belong to NK pilots. The only admitted Soviet loss I know of was a Soviet instructor pilot and his NV student being downed after being caught by US planes. They both ejected and survived. The Soviet instructor pilot's name is known.

This might explain "Col. Toon."

Nguyen Toon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Go to page 58 of this document, amazing!

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/cryptologic_histories/on_watch.pdf

 

[kettbo]

Very interesting FLYBOYJ. You have once again posted great links

See Modeling section/Modeling/show your WORKBENCH area

 

[steve51]

Great stuff FLYBOYJ. It is certainly intriguing to consider that the Vietnamese created a fictitious pilot to cover up the operations of the Koreans. I love mysteries like this!

 

[kettbo]

work progresses on the F-105F or G, must decide which way to go soon

WAAAAAY larger than a MiG-21!

a wash of color to highlight flaws, getting close to the basics done

dusted off the old A-6 I started in Iraq during 2004. It had troubles so I did not send it in for casting. Have worked on it sparingly over time. Now getting close. Threw some basic paint on it for effect