PVAF MiGs vs USAF and USN

[kettbo]

Have read CLASHES by Mitchel several times, AWESOME BOOK. I have a stack of Osprey booklets (some better than others) on the Units and Duels of the conflict, even struggled through Boniface's MiG's over Vietnam....

Some questions
1. Did the PVAF ever use Heat Seeking missiles from their MiG-17s? Every now and then I hear something....wondering if HS missiles on PVAF 'some' or 'later' MiG-17s is urban myth. Maybe I'm thinking of Middle East MiG-17 upgrade. Any help appreciated.

2. Noted the MiG-21F-13 carried only one onboard cannon, gave up the second cannon for HS Missile equipment. I know the MiG-21MF came with the belly cannon. Is there any solid evidence that the GP-9 recessed gun pack option was used by the PVAF on the few PF or numerous PFM versions in their inventory?

3. I recall the Earlier MiG-21s were limited to 600kt below 12k ft due to fuel pump issues. I understand this was fixed in the MiG-21MF. Any info contrary to this?

Am recovering from a heart attack and bypass surgery roughly a month ago...dusted off some books and started looking at my substantial aircraft miniatures RAIDEN MINIATURES to release the F-105 that I did the master for, also an RB-66.

 

[GregP]

If they didn't have external fuel tanks, the MiG-21 might have been limited to 600 knots due to runing out of fuel when it reached 600 knots. If there ever was a fuel-critical aircraft in the world, the MiG-21 was it! You're tearing all over the sky with little to no forward view and afuel gauge that you can see wind down rather quickly. Missing an approach might lead to a flameout crash when the go-juice was gone!

It is supposed to have been a great-flying ship, as was the Sukhoi Su-15, but very short legged.

Like many aircraft designed as interceptors, the MiG-21 had a short range. This was not helped by a design defect where the center of gravity shifted rearwards once two-thirds of the fuel had been used. This had the effect of making the plane uncontrollable, resulting in an endurance of only 45 minutes in clean condition ... IF you stayed out of afterbirner. The issue of the short endurance and low fuel capacity of the MiG-21F, PF, PFM, S/SM and M/MF variants, though each had a somewhat greater fuel capacity than its predecessor, led to the development of the MT and SMT variants. These had a range increase of 250 km (155 mi) compared to the MiG-21SM, but at the cost of worsening all other performance figures, such as a lower service ceiling and slower time to altitude.

I'd have to go digging to anwer your questions. I'll see what I can find.

Surgery is no fun under the BEST of circumstances. Speedy revcovery to you, kettbo.

 

[Matt308]

Yes, hope you can recover and continue to contribute. I wondered where you have been. Best.

 

[Coyote]

Best of luck with the health issues. Clashes IS an awesome book. One of my favs. The Mig-21 was a bad ass design. Simple, sleek and deadly. I have always wondered if the Mig-19 and 21s had been in the hands of equal pilots to ours and had proper leadership (ground control and so forth) ; Just how good were these aircraft. I personally think if a war between NATO and the Warsaw pact would have broken out, NATO woulda had its hands full. Sorry if a bit off topic.

 

[Shortround6]

Best wishes for best possible recovery.

 

[silence]

Talking planes is the best therapy (outside the bedroom!). (Can I say that here?)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"And Kill MiGs" by Lou Drendel is a good source of information on the air war over Vietnam.

I've worked around both aircraft - ingenuity and crudeness all in one, but you've probably heard that before.

MiG-17 - refined MiG-15 fuselage with an afterburner that just dumps tons of fuel into the tail pipe. If flown conservatively without drop tanks I think you could probably get between 350 - 450 miles out of it. Many systems are the same or similar as the MiG-15 and could be found in in later trainer aircraft (L29, L39, Iskra). AFAIK the -17 was used as a sniper, MiG-21s would chase lumbering bomb laden aircraft into a box and the -17s would be waiting there. Like during the Korean war, pilot skill varied. I've heard stories about a "Honcho" or two flying with the PVAF, rumors have one being KIA and an "advisor" from North Korea.

The 21 was a little bit more labor intensive. If I remember correctly if you run the aircraft low on fuel without a center line tank, the aft C/G is exceeded it aircraft could be real squirly. At full burner in an intercept role you had anywhere between 20 - 30 minutes in the air. I helped out crewing a PF model I believe originally from East Germany. The MiG-21 seemed pretty simple when compared to an F-104 (which the MiG-21 clearly dominated in clashes between India and Pakistan). IIRC the PVAF downed about 85 US aircraft in aerial combat while loosing over 200 (claimed).

 

[parsifal]

Ive never been closer than about 80 miles from a MIG, and havent read any of those books. Bit of a problem I can see.

But we talked about MIGs all the time when I was serving during our threat assessment briefings. We believed our A-4s operating in the air warfare role could generally outperform the MIG 17 and our AIM Sidewinders gave a real edge to the Skyhawks we were using. It was a different storey with the MIG19s, and the MIG-21 was seen as having a definite advantage over anything in the RAN. The RAAF boys, with their Mirage IIIEs were of the opinion they could manage the MIG 21s.

Our Pilots were taught never to try and dogfight with any of these aircraft, so im surprised that they being so badly assessed here in that very capacity. Where these planes fell down was in their range, and their electronics. They were terrible, not to put too finer point on the issue.

These might be of some interest


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFO-jQ1Iutk


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCmL2pkG7ZY

 

[parsifal]

Basic Utube footage of the MIG 19 21


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u20tHzjXMgU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPLwZcjQhBA

 

[Milosh]

Going OT.

Could the MiG-17 intercept the B-36?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Going OT.

Could the MiG-17 intercept the B-36?

In clear weather and during the day, I believe it could. MiG-17s were used by the Nigerian AF to intercept gun running cargo aircraft going into Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War. Even with East German pilots, intercepts were difficult when the gun runners switched to night operations, I don't know if radar was made available to the NAF during this conflict.

 

[swampyankee]

I remember reading that the MiG-17 was specifically designed as the MiG-15 could not intercept a B-36. As a relevant aside, a friend said a friend of his, who flew F-86Ds for the USAF, said the B-36's speed plus altitude at high altitudes meant the Sabre could only make a single pass.

As to the other issues, I remember reading an article in USNI Proceedings about the MiG-21 where it said that about a third of its fuel was unusable because of c/g problems (as in "design defect").

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I remember reading that the MiG-17 was specifically designed as the MiG-15 could not intercept a B-36. As a relevant aside, a friend said a friend of his, who flew F-86Ds for the USAF, said the B-36's speed plus altitude at high altitudes meant the Sabre could only make a single pass.

Not true; it's obvious they came from the same stable and share a lot of common internal systems but were two different aircraft, especially when you add in the AB and visually compare airframes. the MiG-17 project started out as an improvement to the MiG-15bis and wound up with so many changes it was determined that it was actually and entirely new aircraft. As far as intercepting the B-36? The MiG-17 intercepted and engaged B-47s on several occasions, so that might answer that question.


Maintenance wise they are very similar. I know several people who have flown both aircraft and the MiG-17 is the better flying machine, doesn't snake as much on landings, maintains aileron effectiveness at lower speeds and has better trans sonic control.

As to the other issues, I remember reading an article in USNI Proceedings about the MiG-21 where it said that about a third of its fuel was unusable because of c/g problems (as in "design defect").

That would be only without the center line tank attached.

 

[Gixxerman]

Best of luck with the health issues there kettbo.

I have always had a liking for the Mig 19, best looker of all the 'single tube' Migs to me.

I remember my dad (Vulcan aircrew mid 50's to early 60's) saying that they had experienced Migs trying to come up to bother them on occasion and they just couldn't get the altitude necessary one by one each member of the intercept flight would flame out fall away.
Of course widespread introduction of effective high altitude SAMs made ceilings of 60,000ft+ redundant, for everybody.

 

[kettbo]

Thanks for all the good wishes folks! 4 weeks ago today. As for my absence from here the last few month prior, finishing a car build.

OK, as for the questions
1. Any confirmed HS missile use by PVAF MiG-17s?
or

2. Any confirmed gun pods on PVAF MiG-21 PF or PFM versions? Looked at all the pics in the books that I have, do not see any. In the Osprey DUELS, F-4 vs MiG-21, the color MiG-21 artwork shows the plane with moddled green uppers and a gun pod. Artistic licence?

3. answered: not so great fuel pumps, Snaking with lower fuel state...thanks for the refresher,,,and low initial fuel state at takeoff!

 

[eagledad]

Hello, I also wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

As for the Mig 17 using heat seeking missiles, Randy "Duke" Cunningham Claimed that he and his wingman out flew an Atol missile launched from a Mig 17 during a fight on May 8, 1972. See

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham: Vietnam Ace, Prison Inmate

for further information.

Again, a speedy recovery!

Eagledad

 

[kettbo]

I'm most interested in the air war over Vietnam. I have made a few aircraft masters for casting in 1/285 scale. Here is a mixed bag

1. Interesting read....pulled away beyond the MiG's Atoll range....
good start, need more!

2. Osprey's Duels, Phantom vs MiG-21 further states 'PF and PFM with cannon pods' BUT I believe the author copied off a capabilities list vs evidence.
Istvan Toperczer says "not yet equipped with gun pods" re PF and PFM, but NO pic from that period or the many PVAF monument planes has a cannon pod. I'll keep looking

FLYBOYJ, forgot we had a PostWar area, thanks for moving the thread

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FLYBOYJ, forgot we had a PostWar area, thanks for moving the thread

You're quite welcome, speedy recovery!

 

[kettbo]

nice MiG-21 vid to get in the mood for research


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU8ADSWbWMI

 

[parsifal]

looks as if yu are getting ready for some kind of air combat sim. One from the vault to look at is "Foxbat and Phantom" by Jim Dunnigan. Its very dated and some of the information is just downright wrong, but does give a reasonable basis for you to work as well