Rafhart
Airman
Hi, I would like to show you what is in the box of IBG, PZL 23A. Polish light bomber. Very good model just builds it.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ofl80D7x34
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ofl80D7x34
PZL 23A Karaś IBG 1:72
- Thread starter Rafhart
- Start date
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vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I love that airplane!
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- #4
Rafhart
Airman
I started building
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- #6
Rafhart
Airman
I know I have to break, unfortunately my English is not very good.
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- #8
Rafhart
Airman
Very good idea with these subtitles, thank you.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Your English is much better than my Polish. I know just enough to get punched!
Ralph Haus
Tech Sergeant
Rafhart - Here we are 4 years later! You may or may not still be active on the board? Hopefully yes.
I have a couple of questions. I just opened my IBG PZL.23B. After 'trying' to understand the instructions, especially the paint guidelines, I believe one needs to be Polish to build one? The few links that I have found regarding these Karas' builds all have the same issues, colors? What color; brand, and number, did you use for the interior? Some shade of kahki? Same for the exterior. I have seen so many 'suggested' variations, including using RLM 64 with RLM 76, that it is almost down to whatever I paint it it will 'kind-of' be right!
I have a couple of questions. I just opened my IBG PZL.23B. After 'trying' to understand the instructions, especially the paint guidelines, I believe one needs to be Polish to build one? The few links that I have found regarding these Karas' builds all have the same issues, colors? What color; brand, and number, did you use for the interior? Some shade of kahki? Same for the exterior. I have seen so many 'suggested' variations, including using RLM 64 with RLM 76, that it is almost down to whatever I paint it it will 'kind-of' be right!
Ralph Haus
Tech Sergeant
Stumbled onto this. An answer for my interior colors? Although 1/48 I can adapt to the 1/72. So many colors!! AND two interpretations? I'll select a pallet choice (although my Romanian Service will probably be the olive drab major color), I'll try an visually select the colors from the Taymia and Valejo pallet that I have. It should prove to be not only be a challenge but fun as well?
There is still a problem with the colours for Polish PZL 23 because none of the planes has survived. The remnants found, aren't able to give the clear answer on the Karaś paints. There were three Polish Khaki used. Up to the 1935 the early ( light ) Khaki FS20122 was used for the initial serie of the Karaś bomber. It is very possible the same coat was used for the interiors. However the early sources say that it was a blue-grey paint similar to the one used for undersides but more greyish. Then, in 1935, the new paint on tops was introduced because the previous colour faded quite quickly. The new paint was also of the Khaki tone but more greenish. Unfortunately the chip of the dope didn't survived. It might have been FS34095 or 34097. The Khaki is called a mid Polish Khaki. The colour was used for PZL.23s up to 1937/38 when the Dark Khaki was introduced. The Dark Khaki ( also called the late Khaki ) was a coat of the brownish tinge. It was a mix of the RAL 8014 (FS 30097) and RAL 6022 (FS 34084) paints. The colour is said to be the FS30108. Similar to the Early Khaki and the Mid one, the coat was used for the interior as well.
The undersides were paited with FS35450 but also it could be FS 36329 for the camouflage to the 1936 and the FS35526 or FS35550 from 1936.
Here you are the colour chips For Polish AF according to the model paint - kolorystyka modelarska | Tajemnice "polskiego khaki"
IMHO bcause the kit for the Karaś is of the "A" variant it means she was the earlier plane what results in the early Khaki or the mid one both for tops and interior.
the early, (light) Khaki
the mid Khaki
the late (dark) Khaki
the Blue-Grey for undersides
Recommended paints :
early Khaki - Hataka 011 Light Polish Khaki
mid Khaki - Hataka 018 US Olive Drab (Late, ANA 613)
late Khaki - Hataka 010 Dark Polish Khaki
undersides - Hataką 036 Light Blue Gray
The undersides were paited with FS35450 but also it could be FS 36329 for the camouflage to the 1936 and the FS35526 or FS35550 from 1936.
Here you are the colour chips For Polish AF according to the model paint - kolorystyka modelarska | Tajemnice "polskiego khaki"
IMHO bcause the kit for the Karaś is of the "A" variant it means she was the earlier plane what results in the early Khaki or the mid one both for tops and interior.
the early, (light) Khaki
the mid Khaki
the late (dark) Khaki
the Blue-Grey for undersides
Recommended paints :
early Khaki - Hataka 011 Light Polish Khaki
mid Khaki - Hataka 018 US Olive Drab (Late, ANA 613)
late Khaki - Hataka 010 Dark Polish Khaki
undersides - Hataką 036 Light Blue Gray
Ralph Haus
Tech Sergeant
Wurger,
You information is much appreciated. The kit that I have is a 1/72 IBG (72510) and is the 23 B; the markings are for the late 1940's to late 1941's. Interesting that there are two main colors shown in the instruction art; (your suggested) Hataka 011 and Hataka 018 for this period. The 018 is associated with the Odessa and Stalingrad bombardments. Other than the ID number (17 vs 13), I see no difference in the two. So I will be going with the 13. So, I believe that I can use the Hataka 036 and the Hataka 018 and be 'fairly accurate? The interior and the bay areas can be Hataka 018?
I'm not sure of the kit that this photo below is of, but is does show, somewhat, the colors. The markings are not Romanian like mine, but if one adds a yellow band or two, and 'squints'! What is interesting is the non-symmetry of the 'checkerboard' wing markings? Mistake??
You information is much appreciated. The kit that I have is a 1/72 IBG (72510) and is the 23 B; the markings are for the late 1940's to late 1941's. Interesting that there are two main colors shown in the instruction art; (your suggested) Hataka 011 and Hataka 018 for this period. The 018 is associated with the Odessa and Stalingrad bombardments. Other than the ID number (17 vs 13), I see no difference in the two. So I will be going with the 13. So, I believe that I can use the Hataka 036 and the Hataka 018 and be 'fairly accurate? The interior and the bay areas can be Hataka 018?
I'm not sure of the kit that this photo below is of, but is does show, somewhat, the colors. The markings are not Romanian like mine, but if one adds a yellow band or two, and 'squints'! What is interesting is the non-symmetry of the 'checkerboard' wing markings? Mistake??
fubar57
General
The Polish used offset wing insignia to try and confuse enemy aircraft as to the initial attitude of the Polish aircraft
Yes it is not a mistake. The pic shows the model of a Polish Karaś belonged to the 22 Bomber Squadron. All Polish military planes of pre-war PAF had the offset wing insignias for the purpose Geo mentioned above. The one seems to be painted with the mid Khaki.
So your Karaś kit is for the Romanian AF. So the colours could be different. I'll check.
So your Karaś kit is for the Romanian AF. So the colours could be different. I'll check.
OK. ...
Most of PZL 23s in Romania were Polish planes that came there after the 17th September 1939. Romanians menaged to start these and maintenanced them themself. These "Polish" Karaś bombers stayed in the Polish AF colours untill the summer 1940 and evan later. Initially the PAF 'checkerboard' were overpainted with the Romanian roundels. Later these were repainted with another colour set used by the Romanian AF. The undersides were the firstl ereas that got the new colour of the FS25526. On the 1st May 1940 Romanian roundels were replaced with the crosses of St. Michael and the roundels were overpainted with possible the FS34079 Olive Green. Beginning the summer 1941 tops started being repainted with FS34079 Olive Green.
Because most of the Romanian PZL 23s might be "A" ( might be upgraded to the B one) planes used by PAF for training at the Dęblin school it seems that the early Khaki should be correct. However if these were of the B variant I would say it should be the mid Khaki though. Anyway, the IBG instruction says that the Polish Khaki should be used for the White 7,13 and 15. The Olive Green should be for White 17 and again for the White 13 as the plane was repainted in 1941. However the coat of the undersides shouldn't be the Hataka 036 for all of the planes. See the chip below. The FS25526 was lighter then the Polish Blue-Grey paint and closer to the German RLM65.
Regarding the interior colour.. as long as the planes weren't repainted these remianed of the Polish Khaki. But what was the colour there when the planes were overpainted I haven't found so far. IMHO Romanians could have followed the Polish way of painting and repainted the interior with the Olive Green coat.
Most of PZL 23s in Romania were Polish planes that came there after the 17th September 1939. Romanians menaged to start these and maintenanced them themself. These "Polish" Karaś bombers stayed in the Polish AF colours untill the summer 1940 and evan later. Initially the PAF 'checkerboard' were overpainted with the Romanian roundels. Later these were repainted with another colour set used by the Romanian AF. The undersides were the firstl ereas that got the new colour of the FS25526. On the 1st May 1940 Romanian roundels were replaced with the crosses of St. Michael and the roundels were overpainted with possible the FS34079 Olive Green. Beginning the summer 1941 tops started being repainted with FS34079 Olive Green.
Because most of the Romanian PZL 23s might be "A" ( might be upgraded to the B one) planes used by PAF for training at the Dęblin school it seems that the early Khaki should be correct. However if these were of the B variant I would say it should be the mid Khaki though. Anyway, the IBG instruction says that the Polish Khaki should be used for the White 7,13 and 15. The Olive Green should be for White 17 and again for the White 13 as the plane was repainted in 1941. However the coat of the undersides shouldn't be the Hataka 036 for all of the planes. See the chip below. The FS25526 was lighter then the Polish Blue-Grey paint and closer to the German RLM65.
Regarding the interior colour.. as long as the planes weren't repainted these remianed of the Polish Khaki. But what was the colour there when the planes were overpainted I haven't found so far. IMHO Romanians could have followed the Polish way of painting and repainted the interior with the Olive Green coat.
Kyushuj7w
Airman 1st Class
Was there ever an English language accounting of the air war campaign written from the Polish perspective? With the destruction of the polish state, cities, records etc and the killing by both german and soviets of many in the military and civilian leadership, that left the few survivors to flee to england and france or later to be released from soviet camps to fly for the VVS.
Ralph Haus
Tech Sergeant
This had to have taken a while to 'dig' this information up? Thank you again.
I will be doing the white 13 and using your suggested FS 25526 underside and FS 34079 for the top sides. If I'm reading correctly the interior (and the bay areas?) will have the same olive green color? Makes masking and spraying much easier.
The photos are interesting as well. It 'appears' that the landing gear (covers?) are painted the same light color as the underside? Optical? Or is the box art incorrect?
