PZL-P11c colour

[SirFrancis]

Hi,
Just building an Arma Hobby 1/72 kit. So the overall topside / fuselage colour is supposed to be 'Light Polish Khaki'. Is there a Tamiya or Mr Hobby in this colour? Looking at built models online the range in shades is huge from different shades of tan, khaki and olive. Not sure what is correct.

Also the front outer ring on the cowling appears a different colour to the rest of the fuselage. The instructions are wrong, they say white, when it looks dark brownish. Some built models online have a range of colours for this from same colour as rest of fuselage to greyish to light brown to darker copper.

Decals include only number 4 (161Sq) and 6 (152sq). Not sure if historically any of these had the extra 2 guns in the wings, as that is optional in this kit.

The Pzl in the museum has a olive-khaki look. Whereas the model pic below shows a more NATO Brown -tan look.

ok thanks

 

[Wurger]

IIRC, neither the Tamiya nor Mr. Hobby offered the exact Polish colours for our pre-war planes. The only firm is the Hataka that sells the ready for applying colours. Hence the paint numbers in the instruction. The Polish paints can be bought as the colours sets.

The suggested sets of the colours are ...

for brushing ... HTK-BS01 Polish Air Force paint set - BLUE LINE
for airbrushing ... HTK-AS01 Polish Air Force paint set - RED LINE or HTK-CS01 Polish Air Force paint set - ORANGE LINE

Generally it is said the Polish Khaki was the FS30118. However the Polish Khaki could be of three tones.

1. the early Khaki used in 1930-1935 of earth tinge ( HTKC011 Polish Light Khaki )
2. the mid Khaki used in 1935-1938 of olive tinge ( HTKC018 Olive Drab )
3. the late Khaki used in 1938-1939 of brown tinge ( HTKC010 Polish Dark Khaki )

For the PZL P-11c I would use the no.2 although the instruction suggests the 1. Anyway the equivalents for the paint HTKC011 can be Vallejo 71.024, Mr. Hobby H81, Life Color TM008.

4. the colour for the undersides was the blue-grey ( ~FS36307) or its faded tinge ( ~FS26329) . The mix of the paint consisted of the blue and light grey colours. Unfortunately the proportion is unknown. The instruction of your model suggests the HTK-036 Light Blue-Grey. Its equivalents can be Vallejo 71.046, Mr.Hobby H67, Life Color TM009.

Other colours you may need ...

a. the Rust - Mr.Hobby H47, Vallejo 71.136
b. the Brown leather/ Black leather - Mr.Hobby H460/ H12, Vallejo 72.740/ 71.057
c. the Gun Metal - Mr. Hobby H018, Vallejo 71.072.

And a word about the front ring of the engine cowling that was an exhaust manifold. It wasn't white of course. It was painted black but because of the moisture, I mean fog, rain and snow, it became rusty. So either you paint it black for a brand new kite or rusty if in service for some of time.

Here pictures of my P-11c still under construction ... the colours at the engine cowling can be noticed.

with more light she looks like this ...

PS. regarding the MGs in wings .. none of known pictures of the both P-11c shows them there. Basicly the P-11c was armed with 2x7,92mm MGs. Beginning 1937 it was possible to mount two additional MGs in wings. But these increased the aircraft's weight, reducing its performance and maneuverability. Therefore the wing MGs were removed in units often. Ultimately, only 10 aircraft were equipped with four machine guns in September 1939. I hope this may help.

and this link may come in handy ...

Poradnik modelarski - budowa i malowanie samolotu PZL P.11c - Piotr SÅomiÅski

W tej odsÅonie naszego bloga bÄdzie coÅ dla fanów polskiego lotnictwa!

exito.sklep.pl

 

[SirFrancis]

IIRC, neither the Tamiya nor Mr. Hobby offered the exact Polish colours for our pre-war planes. The only firm is the Hataka that sells the ready for applying colours. Hence the paint numbers in the instruction. The Polish paints can be bought as the colours sets.

The suggested sets of the colours are ...

for brushing ... HTK-BS01 Polish Air Force paint set - BLUE LINE
for airbrushing ... HTK-AS01 Polish Air Force paint set - RED LINE or HTK-CS01 Polish Air Force paint set - ORANGE LINE

Generally it is said the Polish Khaki was the FS30118. However the Polish Khaki could be of three tones.

1. the early Khaki used in 1930-1935 of earth tinge ( HTKC011 Polish Light Khaki )
2. the mid Khaki used in 1935-1938 of olive tinge ( HTKC018 Olive Drab )
3. the late Khaki used in 1938-1939 of brown tinge ( HTKC010 Polish Dark Khaki )

For the PZL P-11c I would use the no.2 although the instruction suggests the 1. Anyway the equivalents for the paint HTKC011 can be Vallejo 71.024, Mr. Hobby H81, Life Color TM008.

4. the colour for the undersides was the blue-grey ( ~FS36307) or its faded tinge ( ~FS26329) . The mix of the paint consisted of the blue and light grey colours. Unfortunately the proportion is unknown. The instruction of your model suggests the HTK-036 Light Blue-Grey. Its equivalents can be Vallejo 71.046, Mr.Hobby H67, Life Color TM009.

Other colours you may need ...

a. the Rust - Mr.Hobby H47, Vallejo 71.136
b. the Brown leather/ Black leather - Mr.Hobby H460/ H12, Vallejo 72.740/ 71.057
c. the Gun Metal - Mr. Hobby H018, Vallejo 71.072.

And a word about the front ring of the engine cowling that was an exhaust manifold. It wasn't white of course. It was painted black but because of the moisture, I mean fog, rain and snow, it became rusty. So either you paint it black for a brand new kite or rusty if in service for some of time.

Here pictures of my P-11c still under construction ... the colours at the engine cowling can be noticed.

View attachment 877828
View attachment 877829
View attachment 877830

with more light she looks like this ...
View attachment 877831
View attachment 877832

PS. regarding the MGs in wings .. none of known pictures of the both P-11c shows them there. Basicly the P-11c was armed with 2x7,92mm MGs. Beginning 1937 it was possible to mount two additional MGs in wings. But these increased the aircraft's weight, reducing its performance and maneuverability. Therefore the wing MGs were removed in units often. Ultimately, only 10 aircraft were equipped with four machine guns in September 1939. I hope this may help.

and this link may come in handy ...

Poradnik modelarski - budowa i malowanie samolotu PZL P.11c - Piotr SÅomiÅski

W tej odsÅonie naszego bloga bÄdzie coÅ dla fanów polskiego lotnictwa!

exito.sklep.pl

Hey Wojtek. I thought you would know a bit about this little Polish fighter. Ok so to my eyes your model appears to have an olive-drab look 1935-38. I'm doing mine 1938-39 so brown tinge then. Polish Dark Khaki. I'm just going to mix some colours I have then. I've got NATO brown, so maybe a touch of dark yellow with it.

Ok so the cowl ring was a manifold? Yeah makes sense it would be rust colour. So the Pzl.11 pic from the museum that has it a gray colour... what's going on there? New black manifold, then sat around outside for years and just faded to grey?

So your model has the wing guns. They do look cool. So I will have to decide on cool vs historic then ...haha.

cheers

 

[Wurger]

Hey Wojtek. I thought you would know a bit about this little Polish fighter. Ok so to my eyes your model appears to have an olive-drab look 1935-38. I'm doing mine 1938-39 so brown tinge then. Polish Dark Khaki. I'm just going to mix some colours I have then. I've got NATO brown, so maybe a touch of dark yellow with it.

Ok so the cowl ring was a manifold? Yeah makes sense it would be rust colour. So the Pzl.11 pic from the museum that has it a gray colour... what's going on there? New black manifold, then sat around outside for years and just faded to grey?

So your model has the wing guns. They do look cool. So I will have to decide on cool vs historic then ...haha.

cheers

With the Dark Khaki I would be careful. The P-11c series for the PAF was assembled from the end of 1934 to 1936. So all planes were painted with the early or mid Khaki because in 1935 the manufacturer of paints for the PZL was changed and the Khaki tinge too. Also if a plane was overhauled later it could get the a coat of later tone. Here the three tones of the Polish Khaki .. the early one from the left then the mid and later tone. IIRC the early and the later coats of the Khaki paint were found on the P-11c from the museum. The military number of the P-11c is 8.63 what indicates the plane of the early mid production time that was overhauled before the war started. However most of P-11c wasn't overhauled and repainted. But the choice is your and which colour you decide to apply it will be fine.

Yes the front cowl ring was the manifold. The PZL P-11c from the museum in Cracow was restored some time ago. She got the new coat and wasn't flown as she is not able to get airborn. But the engine was started a couple of times in order to check if it could work. For the resaon the ring that was painted as the entire kite just started getting grey due the heat and didn't get the correct rusty tone yet.

And yes my model is going to have the wing MGs as one of the few that had them in 1939.

 

[cammerjeff]

With the Dark Khaki I would be careful. The P-11c series for the PAF was assembled from the end of 1934 to 1936. So all planes were painted with the early or mid Khaki because in 1935 the manufacturer of paints for the PZL was changed and the Khaki tinge too. Also if a plane was overhauled later it could get the a coat of later tone. Here the three tones of the Polish Khaki .. the early one from the left then the mid and later tone. IIRC the early and the later coats of the Khaki paint were found on the P-11c from the museum. The military number of the P-11c is 8.63 what indicates the plane of the early mid production time that was overhauled before the war started. However most of P-11c wasn't overhauled and repainted. But the choice is your and which colour you decide to apply it will be fine.

View attachment 877856

Yes the front cowl ring was the manifold. The PZL P-11c from the museum in Cracow was restored some time ago. She got the new coat and wasn't flown as she is not able to get airborn. But the engine was started a couple of times in order to check if it could work. For the resaon the ring that was painted as the entire kite just started getting grey due the heat and didn't get the correct rusty tone yet.

And yes my model is going to have the wing MGs as one of the few that had them in 1939.

Thanks Wurger! I learned something today, I never knew the front ring of the cowling was also the exhaust manifold.