Question on Bf110D "Dackelbauch'.

[Airframes]

Does anyone have any information on the cannon armament, use or otherwise, on the Bf110D when fitted with the huge 'Dackelbauch' belly tank ?
Although the cannon ports are clear of the front of the tank, the spent cases ejector ports are covered by the huge fitting, so I'm guessing that the cannon could not be used when the tank was fitted. Photos of a tank being fitted clearly show the cannons still in place though.
Any info will be gratefully received.

 

[stona]

That is a very good question. I agree that the cannon armament was still in place but don't know how or if they dealt with the spent casings. The tank did indeed extend well past the ejection ports. It's interesting to note that the ETC rack fitted to carry the under fuselage bombs did clear those ports...just.
I'll let you know if I find anything.
Cheers
Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

Looking on the pics of the plain 110D, looks like there was no chutes under the nose of the aircraft (anywhere in front of the wing leading edge) in the 1st place?

 

[stona]

This is actually from the C manual, showing the correct fitting of the panels under the cannon weapon pack. The panels were the same on the D.

Here's a best of all worlds picture. On this D-0/B of Erprobungsgruppe210 you can see the ports (not sure which are which now) and also a line of rivet holes which show where the 'dackelbauch' would be fitted.

Here you can see the adaptor/fairing which would correspond to those rivet holes. The cannon are still present, but where would the ejected casings go?

Piccies are from John Vasco's excellent Bf 110 C,D and E book. Get it if you can.

Cheers

Steve

 

[rochie]

Look here Terry, says they removed the cannon, though 4 mg's for a zerzstorer is piss poor armament !

World War II in Pictures: Bf 110 Zerstorer

Scroll down to the colour pic with the camels in just above the nightfighter pic

 

[fubar57]

Check your email Terry. You probably have it already but I found it interesting. A few more books to go through...



Geo

 

[fubar57]

From the Crowood Aviation Series book...

Geo

 

[tomo pauk]

Hmm - the belly tank was maybe designed with volume where spent casings will land?

 

[rochie]

Hmm - the belly tank was maybe designed with volume where spent casings will land?

Good suggestion tomo !

 

[fubar57]

Just read an article that said several aircraft were lost due to a design flaw in the tank; when the tank was empty of fuel, the remaining vapors caused an explosion when exposed to a spark.



Geo

 

[stona]

On the last picture of the three I posted there is clearly a recess above which sits, or could sit, the cannon weapon pack. There is nothing about the weapon pack or blast tubes that would interfere with the long range 'dackelbauch' tank.

The various outlets in the panels shown in that picture are gas discharge vents to the front, roughly under where the cannon barrels meet the blast tubes, and the cartridge ejection ports to the rear. Sometimes the spent cartridges fell into a fairing (Hulsenwanne), visible as a bulge under the aircraft. Often this was not present and the spent casings were ejected into the air. Both the ETC rack and the Dackelbauch covered the cartridge ejection ports (Hulsenableitungen) so I was incorrect to say that the rack cleared the ejection ports in my post above above. The rack did leave the gas discharge vents (Ausschnitte fur Gasableitungen) clear, which confused me. I did say I wasn't sure which was which!!!

The question is whether the installation of the dackelbauch or ETC rack necessarily meant the removal of the cannon pack whether for reasons of weight/CoG or the shell ejection problem? I'm sure that the Germans could have worked out an alternative way of dealing with spent casings if the weapons could still be lifted along with the increased fuel or bomb load.

I hope that the answer to the bomb rack question will be in another of Vasco's excellent books, 'Bombsights over England' which I do have...somewhere

Cheers

Steve

 

[Capt. Vick]

Piccies are from John Vasco's excellent Bf 110 C,D and E book. Get it if you can.

Cheers

Steve

I've been looking Steve! I've been looking! Hopefully Crecy will reprint it.

 

[Airframes]

Thanks very much chaps, and especially Steve. I do have the Vasco books mentioned, although there is no mention of the spent case ejector method with either the 'Dackelbauch' or the ETC rack in either book.
I've read varying accounts and specs regarding the 'D', and the fitting of the 'Dackelbauch' has been described variously as D-O and D-1/R1, with some descriptions stating it was able to be jettisoned - unlikely, I think, due to a) the method of attachment; b) it's immense size would almost certainly be a problem, and would/could foul the fuselage with disasterous results: c) those aircraft attacked over the North Sea on August 15th, 1940, jettisoned their wing tanks, but not the 'Dackelbauch'.
Accounts by former members of I/ZG76 don't mention the cannon, or jettisoning the belly tank, although mention is made of the terrible handling 'qualities', especially when the tank was almost empty, with fuel sloshing around, and the fire/explosion hazard.
Given that cannon could be used with the ETC rack in place, I'm beginning to think that perhaps there was a 'catch tank' for the spent cases with the big belly tank, although given the limited space, fouling of the ejector ports could be a problem.

 

[stona]

The dackelbauch definitely could not be jettisoned. It was attached to the underside of the aircraft not only by the obvious fuel lines but by clips which are visible in one of the photos above.

I'll dig out 'Bombsights over England' when I get a chance.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Airframes]

Steve, I've checked 'Bombsights ....', and there aren't any further details. I need to double-check on the two books I got this last week (which I've only 'scan read' so far), as I think there's mention of the Bordfunker changing cannon ammo drums, although I may be getting confused with the MG15 magazines !

 

[Denniss]

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me 110/BF 110 Zusatzanlagen.pdf

Cannons were never removed, spent shell cases fell into a special storage area in Dackelbauch. Dackelbauch had 3 fuel tanks with 1050 liters plus an oil tank of unknown capacity.

 

[fubar57]

Thanks Denniss!!



Geo

 

[stona]

Thanks Denniss, that confirms what I thought was the most likely solution.

The auxiliary oil tank carried under the fuselage of some Ds and Es fitted with the large under wing fuel tanks had a 75l capacity. I would guess the extra oil capacity in the dackelbauch tank would have been something similar.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Denniss]

Likely larger due to optional additional use of drop tanks with Dackelbauch although their filling was limited to 450 liters.

 

[Airframes]

Many thanks Denniss, that's great info, and confirms what I thought was the likely arrangement.
Means I've got to scratch-build cannons and ammo drums on the Fujimi '110 now .....