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I was thinking back to this thread. Forget about updating the Courageous class carriers as built, but what about constructing them differently from the onset of their conversion from battlecruiser. Same tear down, budget, machinery, etc. If we want the widest and longest possible flight deck and hangar, what can be done? My thinking is the hangar (dual or single) is made a structural support for the hull, rather than a weight placed on top. I'm no naval engineer, but can we make the hangar take some of the strain on the hull?Short answer - Yes, the bow (and stern) are so daintily constructed that adding flight deck would cause the keel to buckle in a seaway.
Longer version -during builder's trials, Courageous, as large light cruiser, buckled her bow running into a head sea. 130 tons of structural steel were added to strengthen the bow. Courageous class large light cruiser would be operating at just over 19k tons normal*. Post carrier conversion, Courageous was operating at well over 24k tons normal. >25% increase load on a bow that is already marginal on strength was asking for trouble.
Sorry AB but you are assuming the flight deck wasn't a strength deck. From Friedman "British Carrier Aviation" when discussing Furious' rebuild in 1921:-I was thinking back to this thread. Forget about updating the Courageous class carriers as built, but what about constructing them differently from the onset of their conversion from battlecruiser. Same tear down, budget, machinery, etc. If we want the widest and longest possible flight deck and hangar, what can be done? My thinking is the hangar is made a structural support for the hull, rather than a weight placed on top. I'm no naval engineer, but can we make the hangar take some of the strain on the hull?
Burt's "British Battleships 1919 - 1945" contains some details. According to that it was a 1938 proposal to convert C&G only (Moore in "Building for Victory" however indicates all 3 ships were to be included), to single hangar ships. Hangar had to be at least 62ft wide (increased from 50 feet) to allow stowage 3 abreast as in the Illustrious class, height had to be sufficient to allow 3 gallery decks of reasonable width for accomodation. Beam would have to increase by 14ft.Possibly of interest. There were fairly detailed engineering studies of the Furious, Courageous, and Glorious before WWII, which included serious rebuilds. Somewhere on the internet there is (or was) a report on this. From memory, the rebuilds included:
Extending the flight deck froward and incorporating a hurricane bow.
Improved elevator arrangements.
More powerful catapults.
New bulges - for better protection and for buoyancy/stability. The new internal space forward of the hangars would be used for crew quarters and such.
Updated machinery similar to what was done to the 3x QE class and Renown.
Improved AA armament, etc
I've seen those, but I'm proposing addressing the fragile bows from the onset through making the hangar a more stress bearing structure.Possibly of interest. There were fairly detailed engineering studies of the Furious, Courageous, and Glorious before WWII, which included serious rebuilds.
According to that it was a 1938 proposal to convert C&G only to single hangar ships.
By 1938, they should be left alone to serve as best they can until replaced by the Illustrious class.By then C&G were already 20+ years old
I understand the request, but don't know how to engineer it. Part of problem is the original hull design was 80' beam. The carrier conversion has added over 10' to that (13%). Increasing another 14' for a wider hanger is asking for trouble.I've seen those, but I'm proposing addressing the fragile bows from the onset through making the hangar a more stress bearing structure.
I was thinking back to the Courageous class. Had the design of the 1924-1928 conversion wanted the widest possible hangar or hangars, starting with a clean sheet from the battlecruiser hull, how wide a hangar could they go? Minus the bulges, the max beam at waterline was only 81 feet.I can understand the desire for a wider hangar. At 50ft you can only fit 2 Swordfish/Albacore/Barracuda abreast. And with an increase in length from 36ft in the Swordfish to 40ft in the Albacore/Barracuda, aircraft capacity would be falling. Capacity can begin to be restored at 62ft.
Years ago I had worked up a modernization for the trio... and bow strength (and buoyancy) were a point I addressed.I understand the request, but don't know how to engineer it. Part of problem is the original hull design was 80' beam. The carrier conversion has added over 10' to that (13%). Increasing another 14' for a wider hanger is asking for trouble.
The flight deck is already the stressed member, so option to change that.
Extending the flight deck/hurricane plating over the bow is going to cause ship to trim nose down. Which is going to increase the structural load on the bow - I doubt you are even breaking even. Any attempts to increase buoyance - e.g. bulbous bow, again just increases the structural strength issue.
Aside: Courageous class already had small tube boilers and geared turbines. QEs started with large tube boiler and direct drive turbines. So, QEs gained a lot with newer machinery; Courageous class would have benefited some from boiler with superheated steam, and decade newer turbines but it would be a small amount.
Here's ex-HMS Furious cutdown at the scrapyard. I think this is where we'd need to start.Years ago I had worked up a modernization for the trio... and bow strength (and buoyancy) were a point I addressed.
Specifically, I added a bulbous bow AND bulges that ran all the way forward to become that bulb... thus adding significant strengthening to the bow (doubling the vertical plating of the below waterline bow).
Furious also had her long aft horizontal funnel runs removed in favor of a funnel incorporated into a new island and a set of exhaust vents amidships on the port side below the flight deck. I had her torpedoed instead of Ark Royal, but surviving (as I had Courageous survive her torpedoing) by both being fully buttoned-up for possible combat.
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British carriers were designed for more "unfriendly" seas than the Japanese ships.I was thinking back to the Courageous class. Had the design of the 1924-1928 conversion wanted the widest possible hangar or hangars, starting with a clean sheet from the battlecruiser hull, how wide a hangar could they go? Minus the bulges, the max beam at waterline was only 81 feet.
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The Japanese did their best to get the widest ship on the narrowest of waterline beams.
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True, but the Courageous trio as well as Hermes were daintily built. There's a reason Hermes had to spend her days in the Indo-Pacific. Here's Furious taking it in the nose.British carriers were designed for more "unfriendly" seas than the Japanese ships.
Interesting. I figured the open stern (intended for launching floatplanes) and low freeboard aft would have invited a following sea to crash into the rear and cause damage.Actually, Hermes was quite sturdy and capable of handling heavy seas, at least according to DK Brown. The reason she was sent to the Far East was her design being that of a trade protection and scouting nature.
See my post #82 aboveHere's ex-HMS Furious cutdown at the scrapyard. I think this is where we'd need to start.
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At this stage I'm more interested in how without hindsight the original 1925-1928 conversion could have been improved upon, rather than redoing the ship in the 1930s. I think we've discussed the latter to its conclusion. IMO, 1925 when the design is tabled; scrap the aft rounddown and forward hangar level flying off deck. Maximize hangar width. Install a larger island like Hermes below, but without the tripod, to allow more space for flag and flight ops control.So basically take the old machinery (boiler and turbines) out, build new hull, install the 1916 machinery in the 1938 hull and have a world beater