Similar to the LW post the Battle of Britain - what might be the workable options for the RAF after the BoB (say, after the October 1st 1940). From doctrine, logistics, engine and airframe technology and whole aircraft, guns and other armament etc. Also about the best use of LL gear the RAF is getting.
RAF post BoB
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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ditch the whole "leaning into France" Doctrine, it wasted lives.
though i dont know what we could come up with to try and keep the LW occupied ?
though i dont know what we could come up with to try and keep the LW occupied ?
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,973
- Jun 25, 2013
More assets to Coastal Command. Perhaps more minelaying raids.
- Thread starter
- #5
If you're going to do 'leaning forward', do it with a proper bait, like hudred bombers, if not with 200, and try to hit something, like LW bases, sub pens in construction, even Ruhr. Luftwaffe will be compelled to react.
In order to daylight bomber sorties to work, it needs to have escort -> hammer (escort) + anvil (bait) idea. Escort needs to be both capable and numerous, ideally outnumbering the defenders by a large margin. 'Capable' = mostly Spitfire for 1941-42; 'numerous' = ramp up the production even more. So we need to have Westland makeing exclusively Spitfires, farm out the Lysander production to somebody else. Introduction of single-piece wing ribs might decrease manhours needed to make Spitfires (take a look on Bf 109s downed in 1940, and P-36s).
Range needs to be improved, easiest way is to have the historical 29 imp gal tank behind the pilot + a good drop tank a board.
Merlins all across the board should receive better carbs and less draggy exhausts, plus no drop in fit & finish, so the real world performance is improved (talk 380 mph for Spitfire V).
Engine situation can be further mproved by making the Merlin 60 a fighter engine 1st, meaning the Spitfire with a 2-stage engine is in service by Spring instead by Autumn of 1942.
In order to daylight bomber sorties to work, it needs to have escort -> hammer (escort) + anvil (bait) idea. Escort needs to be both capable and numerous, ideally outnumbering the defenders by a large margin. 'Capable' = mostly Spitfire for 1941-42; 'numerous' = ramp up the production even more. So we need to have Westland makeing exclusively Spitfires, farm out the Lysander production to somebody else. Introduction of single-piece wing ribs might decrease manhours needed to make Spitfires (take a look on Bf 109s downed in 1940, and P-36s).
Range needs to be improved, easiest way is to have the historical 29 imp gal tank behind the pilot + a good drop tank a board.
Merlins all across the board should receive better carbs and less draggy exhausts, plus no drop in fit & finish, so the real world performance is improved (talk 380 mph for Spitfire V).
Engine situation can be further mproved by making the Merlin 60 a fighter engine 1st, meaning the Spitfire with a 2-stage engine is in service by Spring instead by Autumn of 1942.
Kevin J
Banned
In 1941 we had Leaning into France to prevent a German invasion. In 1944 the Japanese had kamikaze to prevent the Americans invading.
Shortround6
Major General
Do more photo recon/damage assessment earlier to figure out what was working/not working.
Beef up coastal command (even if it is just a few Blenheim squadrons, Germans weren't really operating in the mid Atlantic yet).
Build some Blenheim torpedo bombers ( a few dozen) to help tide over the Beaufort problem. Build more torpedoes.
Build a better Blenheim. Not a lot better, just a bit better.
Stick the bigger bottom tank in the Spitfire MK V, don't wait.
Stop issuing Defiants in the Spring of 1941 to operational squadrons.
Beef up coastal command (even if it is just a few Blenheim squadrons, Germans weren't really operating in the mid Atlantic yet).
Build some Blenheim torpedo bombers ( a few dozen) to help tide over the Beaufort problem. Build more torpedoes.
Build a better Blenheim. Not a lot better, just a bit better.
Stick the bigger bottom tank in the Spitfire MK V, don't wait.
Stop issuing Defiants in the Spring of 1941 to operational squadrons.
Kevin J
Banned
The Blenheim IV was result of the coastal reconnaissance bomber requirement. The Defiant was required as a night fighter. As for better light bombers, what better than the Mosquito, Maryland, Baltimore, Boston and Vengeance. As for a Spitfire with more fuel inside, first you need the strengthened c wing, the Spitfire Vc doesn't go operational until Spring 1942, and development is one step at a time. In the Summer you get the IXc, in the Autumn the Seafire IIc, in the winter the rear fuselage tank.
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Shortround6
Major General
The Defiant was "required" as a target tug. It basically gave squadrons something to fly, kept them busy and probably more were lost to crashes than German bombers shot down.
Fixing the Blenheim saves a few lives while waiting for the better bombers to show up.
It shouldn't have been a real problem to fit the 94 gallon set up vs the 87 gal set.
Won't turn it into an escort fighter but buys 12-14 minutes at most economical.
Somebody was still using Swordfish for the Channel Dash. A Blenheim with a torpedo slung underneath couldn't have been any worse.
Fixing the Blenheim saves a few lives while waiting for the better bombers to show up.
It shouldn't have been a real problem to fit the 94 gallon set up vs the 87 gal set.
Won't turn it into an escort fighter but buys 12-14 minutes at most economical.
Somebody was still using Swordfish for the Channel Dash. A Blenheim with a torpedo slung underneath couldn't have been any worse.
Glider
Captain
Overall I think the RAF got it pretty right after the BOB. The Spit was up engined as quickly as reasonably possible and its weapons were also considerably enhanced. The Hurricane was being developed but there was a general recognition that its future was in GA not fighter combat. A lot of effort was put into a range of new designs which is why so many new types entered service in 1942.
In this period the Lend Lease aircraft are not really a factor as they were not ready for combat. Those that were (think Hudson, Maryland, Catalina) were introduced quickly.
Could they had done better, probably but overall they did quite well
In this period the Lend Lease aircraft are not really a factor as they were not ready for combat. Those that were (think Hudson, Maryland, Catalina) were introduced quickly.
Could they had done better, probably but overall they did quite well
Admiral Beez
Captain
With the benefit of hindsight, ship 500 Spitfires, 200 Beauforts and 100 Hampdens to Malaya in summer 1941.
EDIT. First, end of BoB, ship 100 Bombay and Harrow transports... for a parachute drop in support of RN ops to take FIC before the Japanese arrive in Sept 1940.
EDIT. First, end of BoB, ship 100 Bombay and Harrow transports... for a parachute drop in support of RN ops to take FIC before the Japanese arrive in Sept 1940.
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Shortround6
Major General
Yep, the "Lean forward into France" campaign would have gone so much better using Buffaloes, Mohawks and well used Hurricanes against Bf 109Fs
Admiral Beez
Captain
If you say so. But by summer 1941 over 200 Spitfires are produced each month, let's use those for French ops instead of your hodgepodge. We'll still have enough for Malaya.
Spitfire production charts
But we don't need to lean into France. It's a waste of aircraft, men and attention. The Russians have the Germans beat. Let's go after the Italians and the Japanese.
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Kevin J
Banned
First, the Russians don't have the Germans beat during the lean into France ops, only after the ops do the Russians have the Germans stalled. Second, I'm not convinced the Spitfire Vb was completely suitable for overseas service until the Vc arrived in Spring 1942. It was also somewhat lacking in range.
No, the Americans need to undertake a Gulf of Tonkin type incident to justify invasion of FIC.
Kevin J
Banned
The Spitfire Vb lacks range and structural strength compared with a Hurricane II, so ship them instead, but 6 gun versions with 45 IG drop tanks for extra range.
- Thread starter
- #16
Who proved that Hurricane II had better range than Spitfire Vb?
Kevin J
Banned
Hurricane with drop tanks has 185 IG for combat, Spitfire Vb only 129 IG.
- Thread starter
- #18
Not if the Spitfire has a 90 gal tank.
Kevin J
Banned
On the Spitfire Vb in 1941, the 90 IG tank is a ferry tank. Its only on the Vc / IXc in 1942 with explosive bolts that it becomes a drop tank
- Thread starter
- #20
Could you please provide the source for this?
