RAF post BoB

[Kevin J]

Could you please provide the source for this?

Do a search on the forums, it's already been discussed. Initially, flight restrictions were imposed when flying with the 90 IG slipper. With the 45 IG slipper you had to drop it before you entered the combat zone. You could retain the 30 IG slipper in combat.

 

[tomo pauk]

Do a search on the forums, it's already been discussed. Initially, flight restrictions were imposed when flying with the 90 IG slipper. With the 45 IG slipper you had to drop it before you entered the combat zone. You could retain the 30 IG slipper in combat.

So there is no source you can quote that 90 IG slipper tank could not be dropped by a Spitfire Vb in 1941?

 

[Kevin J]

So there is no source you can quote that 90 IG slipper tank could not be dropped by a Spitfire Vb in 1941?

I'd have to do a search. Why don't you do a search? It's already been discussed on these forums.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd have to do a search. Why don't you do a search? It's already been discussed on these forums.

You've made a claim, I've asked for sources - you know, standard stuff.
I've also checked at 'Spitfire' by Morgan & Shacklady, they say that only 170 gal tank was ferry-only, smaller tanks were not.

 

[Kevin J]

You've made a claim, I've asked for sources - you know, standard stuff.
I've also checked at 'Spitfire' by Morgan & Shacklady, they say that only 170 gal tank was ferry-only, smaller tanks were not.

That's 1942, not 1941 when the first slipper tanks were fitted and the 90 IG was the ferry tank.

 

[tomo pauk]

That's 1942, not 1941 when the first slipper tanks were fitted and the 90 IG was the ferry tank.

Again - can you prove your claim that it required installation of exploding bolts to turn the 90 IG tank into a drop tank?

 

[Shortround6]

But we don't need to lean into France. It's a waste of aircraft, men and attention. The Russians have the Germans beat. Let's go after the Italians and the Japanese.

The need was political, both to show the British public that the RAF was doing something and to show "Uncle Joe" that the British were doing all they could to support the Soviet Union after Hitler invaded. Going after the Japanese for most of 1941 would be provoking a war that the British could not hope to successfully fight in 1941.

Some sort of attack on the western front of Germany was needed, the question is what kind of attack/combat.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Also considering the RAF can't really "Go after the Japanese" until say, early December 1941?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The need was political, to show "Uncle Joe" that the British were doing all they could to support the Soviet Union after Hitler invaded.

You mean after both Stalin and Hitler invaded Poland. Can you imagine if they got the dates wrong and Stalin invaded Poland first, what would Britain say then about its security guarantee to Poland?

 

[TheMadPenguin]

"lean into" the .50BMG to replace the .303: tougher targets require tougher bullets.

 

[Shortround6]

The Spitfire MK VB with 20mm guns was showing up in the late spring of 1941, throw out the 20mm and replace with the .50 cal?
Hawker got official authority to go ahead with 100 sets of wings with belt feed 20mm cannon on Jan 20th 1941.
The .303s were getting a higher percentage of AP bullets and Incendiary bullets than the BoB was fought with.
The .50 might be a solution to a non-existing problem.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

I said .303 -> .50; did not suggest .80 (20mm) -> .50;
E-wing please.

 

[Shortround6]

I guess it depends on the availability of guns, ammo and the performance penalty that is acceptable.

During the BoB the British were short of AP and Incendiary ammo for the .303 guns to an extent that "ball" ammo (copper jacket, lead core and aluminium filler in tip) was used for up to 37.5% of the fighter ammo. Incendiary ammo was sometimes as little as 12.5% (one gun out of eight) later in the war the Spitfires had two guns loaded with AP and two guns loaded with Incendiary, there is an improvement in hitting power/destructive effect right there without going to the .50 cal guns. It depends on when the increase supplies showed up.
However the .50 had some ammo problems of it's own in 1940-41. British specification ammo had a MV of 2500fps meaning it was about 20% less powerful than the ammo the US used from 1942 on. The British did get the higher velocity ammo later via lend lease. The British also did not like the initial American design of incendiary ammo and did not approve the bullet design for use(either in British loading or American loadings) The Americans did adopt the British design for incendiary ammo for a while before switching to the M8 API round.
The British did not approve the Incendiary B Mark IIz (which was basically just an enlarged .303 Incendiary) until late 1941 and most production took place in 1942 or after. the Incendiary B Mark Iz was very short lived and today no known specimens exist so production was probably rather low.

In 1944 the switch to the .50 cal with "E" wing made sense. Especially with the advent of the gyro gun sight. In 1941 the absence of certain types of ammuntion casts doubt on the wisdom of the switch, plus

Four .303 guns and 350rpg of .303 ammo (1400 rounds total) weighs 205-206 lbs. Two .50 cal guns with 221 rpg ( 442 rounds total) weighs 282lbs. 221rpg was picked as it equals the amount of firing time that 350rpg would last the .303 guns (17 seconds) . If you cut the weight of the .50 installation to that of .303 installation you get about 93-94rpg and about 7.2 seconds of firing time. Please remember the Lean into France Spitfires were pretty much MK IIs and Vs and VBs at the beginning. MK Vs had Melrin 45s with a 9lb boost limit. later raised several times. MK Vbs also used drum feed cannon which required the gun to mounted on it's side and the drum went into the bay next to the cannon. The Drum held 6-7 seconds worth of ammo.

Perhaps the 75-80lb difference in weight won't affect performance much, perhaps moving the gun weight closer to the fuselage will increase the roll rate?
Perhaps the British should have worked harder to get the Belt feed working and into the Spitfires sooner so as to have the "C" wing and armament sooner ?
doubling the firing time of the 20mm cannon seems a more worthwhile goal than sticking a single .50 in each wing?

 

[tomo pauk]

A list of not that great changes that might improve odds for RAF/Allied folks in service/combat:
- find a way to ship sleeves from Bristol to Napier ASAP, so Sabre has less problems; kill Taurus now if necessary
- have Sir Sidney re-think how the tails were fixed to the Typhoon
- think about extra fuel tank in fuselage for Typhoon (perhaps a-la Bf 109), so there is place for radiators in front of the leading edge
(The less problematic Typhoon and improved Spitfires should keep the Fw 190 at the bay in best part of 1942)
- time to think about sleek, powerful and long range fighter by Hawker
- ship Merlin 45 and 20 engines (as well as props) as a gift to the NAA, ASAP, to be installed on Mustang prototype(s)
- press on with Mosquito program, especially for bomber role
- see whether Mosquito wing & tail can be modified and used with a slimmer fuselage for a 2-engined 1-seater fighter or fighter-bomber
- clear out the outward appearance of, now, night bombers, in order to gain speed in order to improve survivability
- more training for night flying, navigation and bombing
- radar-outfitted MP aircraft

 

[MikeMeech]

- radar-outfitted MP aircraft

Hi

ASV was already being fitted to Maritime Patrol Aircraft by this period:

ASV I had been fitted to 12 Hudsons (Nos. 224, 233 and 220 Sqns) for example by January 1940. Lessons learnt from the use of this early system were incorporated into the better engineered ASV II, by October 1940 140 transmitters and 45 receivers delivered, by March 1941 2000 transmitters and 1000 receivers delivered. All despite the priority and demand for CH and CHL systems (see 'Airborne Maritime Surveillance Radar' Vol 1 'British ASV Radars in WWII 1939-1945' by Simon Watts).

Mike

 

[MikeMeech]

Hi

ASV was already being fitted to Maritime Patrol Aircraft by this period:

ASV I had been fitted to 12 Hudsons (Nos. 224, 233 and 220 Sqns) for example by January 1940. Lessons learnt from the use of this early system were incorporated into the better engineered ASV II, by October 1940 140 transmitters and 45 receivers delivered, by March 1941 2000 transmitters and 1000 receivers delivered. All despite the priority and demand for CH and CHL systems (see 'Airborne Maritime Surveillance Radar' Vol 1 'British ASV Radars in WWII 1939-1945' by Simon Watts).

Mike

Hi all

I should have also mentioned that another rush/priority programme was to fit radar systems to smaller ships, such as destroyers, post Dunkirk. This resulted in the above mentioned ASV system being used as the basis for it. By the end of July 1941, 210 destroyers and smaller craft (mostly on convoy work in the Atlantic) had been fitted with the Type 286 which was based on the ASVs. That does mean the suppliers are not just producing for the RAF but also the RN, so no-one is going to get everything they want (see 'Radar at Sea' by Derek Howse, p.99, and 'Development of Radar Equipments for the Royal Navy 1935-45' ed. F A Kingsley (pp.169-172, 'Type 286' by J S Shayler).

Mike

 

[tomo pauk]

Perhaps the new members want to chime in here?

 

[BarnOwlLover]

To be honest, other than fast tracking the Merlin 60 series or finding ways to boost the 20 and 40 series engines, I'm not sure what the British could do. Maybe if the Mustang (which wasn't even flown in combat until 1942) had a higher rated Allison that also did better at altitude, or maybe was designed to British air frame loading specs (which also improved performance, namely climb) would've helped, but is a bit late (probably way late) to help out post BOB.

Also if the Typhoon had a more sorted wing, tail and engine, and maybe even a bubble canopy, that would've also likely been useful. And into service earlier would also be nice. As well as maybe fighter versions of the Mosquito.

 

[PAT303]

Merlins all across the board should receive better carbs and less draggy exhausts, plus no drop in fit & finish, so the real world performance is improved (talk 380 mph for Spitfire V).

Make the Spit Mk III.

 

[Shortround6]

If we are constrained to historical engine production and weapons (for the most part) we have to figure out were the larger the areas of wastage was.
The Spit III is a good idea but there is a problem with engines. Apparently ( I may be very wrong about this) there was a difference in the way the Merlin engine blocks were made so that factory that was making single speed engines could not (or wasn't scheduled ) to make two speed engines aside from Derby and Crewe(?). At any rate Glasgow and Ford don't seem to join in until the Merlin XX so there is quite a question as to much you can change things around in 1941.
Much is often made about the need for 2 speed Merlins for the Hurricane II. That seems to be the official line or at least the internet/book line. Maybe some of our members can break down how production was divvied up between fighter command and bomber command ?
There was quite a demand for 2 speed Merlins from bomber command. Initially the Merlin X and then the the Merlin XX. In part because the Hercules engines were falling behind in production. Best source for the Merlin XX engine to fit to a Spitfire III production version might have been to shutdown the Defiant II Production but that might only get a few hundred engines in 1941? more in 1942.

The Problem for the RAF was that in the fall of 1940 (after the BoB) the RAF thought that the Hurricane II would pretty much match the 109E. Unfortunately the the Luftwaffe was thinking along similar lines and was working to replace the 109E with the 109F. They were also working on sticking higher powered engines in the 109E.
We don't know how well Hurricanes with Merlin XII or Merlins 45s would do, aside from not well at low altitudes. So the Hurricane IIs have to stay until production of Spitfires can be increased. And increased by a few hundred a month, not the dribs and drabs from Westlands in 1940-41.

Both Glasgow and Ford were coming online in the winter of 1940/41 and were sending parts to the other RR factories while they worked up to full production. Both plants were building several hundreds of engines a month by early summer of 1941 and would increase substantial in later years.

But trying to plan things in late 1940 and early 41 is a lot iffier.
The British were producing a lot of crap in late 1940/1941 but if they thought they were likely to be invaded in the spring of 1941 (Hitler doesn't screw up and attack Russia) they may need every plane they can get, crap or not, so screwing up the production lines may not be a good idea.

(aside from the Botha, Some dogs won't hunt, that thing was lucky it could find the water bowl without help)