Would it have been feasible to just convert the MkI/II's in stock to MkV's while changing production over to the MkIII but fitting with with Merlin 45's until the 60 series come online?, if the RAF doesn't lean on France they won't lose hundreds of planes and pilots so a few months lost in production wouldn't bite as hard, once the "MkIV'', we can call the MkIII with the 45 series the MkIV gets online then lean of France until the MkVI then hits production, made easier as it's a re-engined MkIII and MkIV?, lets do away with the MkV and MkIX all together.
RAF post BoB
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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wuzak
Captain
Early Mk Vs were Mk IIs converted with the new engine.
The Mk IV was the original designation for the Griffon engined Spitfire.
That was then changed to XX and went into production as the XII.
The Spitfire PR.I D was then redesignated to PR.IV.
The Mk VI was a MK V with extended wingtips and pressure cabin.
One of the reasons that the Mk III didn't go into production was the extensive changes to the airframe, some of which related to installing the longer 2 speed engine,, which was calculated to cost production when the British could least afford it. Hence they chose to go with the "interim" Mk.V.
The Mk.IX existed because the Mk.VII and Mk.VIII had a number of improvements to the airframe which were taking too long to get into production.
The reason I would not lean into France so freeing up some production time. Making the interim models was needed and had to be done in reality but hurt the war effort overall IMHO.
wuzak
Captain
The decision to make the Mk.V instead of the Mk.III was made in late 1940, or early 1941.
When did the decision to "lean into France" happen?
The trigger for the development of the MK.V was the arrival in the skies over Britain of the Bf 109F from Nov 1940. Christmas Eve 1940 personnel from RAE, Supermarine & Fighter Command senior pilots met to discuss the position. It was acknowledged that the Spitfire I/II was being outmanoeuvered above 25,000ft and that the Mk.III with the Merlin XX wasn't ready for production, mostly because that engine was proving more complex to build. Result, the Merlin 45 to improve the Spitfire's ceiling by 2,000ft and a statement from Rolls Royce that it could provide 300 by the end of March and another 200 by the end of April, without affecting Merlin XX production. X4334 flew with the new engine on 13 Jan 1941.
Sholto-Douglas, also present at that meeting, stated
"We will have to reserve the entire production of the new engine for the Spitfire as this will be a priceless asset in the struggle for air superiority over the south-east corner of England."
Development of the Mk.III had been set back when the first set of wings were destroyed in the first bombing of the Supermarine factory at Southampton in Sept 1940.
It was into the autumn of 1941 before the British Chiefs of Staff felt confident enough that there would not be a renewed Luftwaffe bombing campaign followed by an invasion of Britain. Although the Luftwaffe was tied up in Russia from June, no one was sure whether or not the USSR would collapse completely.
Sholto-Douglas, also present at that meeting, stated
"We will have to reserve the entire production of the new engine for the Spitfire as this will be a priceless asset in the struggle for air superiority over the south-east corner of England."
Development of the Mk.III had been set back when the first set of wings were destroyed in the first bombing of the Supermarine factory at Southampton in Sept 1940.
It was into the autumn of 1941 before the British Chiefs of Staff felt confident enough that there would not be a renewed Luftwaffe bombing campaign followed by an invasion of Britain. Although the Luftwaffe was tied up in Russia from June, no one was sure whether or not the USSR would collapse completely.
If they didn't lose so many fighters over France they wouldn't have been under so much pressure to produce the interim models allowing the MkIII to be put into production, the MkIII with the Merlin 45 was an improvement over the MkV and only got better as the MkVI. Remember this is a ''what if'' thread.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 804
- Sep 30, 2021
From the British history Design and Development of Weapons, M M Postan, D Hay, J D Scott.
It claims there were 4 basic Spitfire airframes which it labels A, B, C and D
A was the original which served for the marks I, II, IV. It was stretched to do the Va, Vb, VI, PR VII and XIII and the Seafire I.
B was the airframe developed from the abortive mark III fighter, it was used for the Vc, IX and XII, and presumably XVI. The main change appears to be the "universal" wing.
C was the mark VII, VIII and most Griffon marks up to XIX
D was the mark 21 onwards.
Mark III prototype first flew on 15 March 1940. Second prototype first flight 4 June 1941. The pressure for fighter numbers was in the first half of 1941, expecting round 2 of the Battle of Britain. While Frank's Fighter Command Losses books are incomplete he records 232 RAF fighters lost January to June 1941, then 499 in the second half of the year. The book notes 186 fighter losses in October and November 1940. Spitfire losses in the first half of 1941 are put at 118, with another 406 in the second half of 1941, of the 406 over half, 217, were in July and August 1941, almost reaching the 239 lost in August and September 1940. Spitfire production was 125 in January 1941, peak for the year was 276 in September. The pressure on the Spitfire numbers was to phase out the Hurricane, so 19 Spitfire out of 60 day fighter squadrons in January 1941 to 58 out of 70 in January 1942.
The RAF sent a few offensive day fighter sorties to France in December 1940, stepping up raids in January, the first Circus was on 10 January, an escorted bomber force.
January 1941, Supermarine produced 1 mark Va and the prototype mark VI.
March 1941 Supermarine finished mark I and started mark Va and b production and Castle Bromwich started IIb production.
May 1941 Supermarine finished PR.III production, Castle Bromwich started mark Vb production
June 1941 Supermarine finished mark Va production, started PR.IV production.
July 1941 Castle Bromwich finished IIa and b production, apart from a laggard IIa in October. Westland started mark I production.
October 1941 Supermarine started mark Vc production.
December 1941 Supermarine started mark VI production, Westland finished mark I and started mark Vb production.
February 1942 Supermarine finished mark Vb production
April 1942 Westland started mark Vc production.
June 1942 Supermarine started mark IX production, Westland finished mark Vb production, Castle Bromwich makes 1 mark Vc
August 1942 Castle Bromwich started Vc production
September 1942 Supermarine finished mark Vc production, started mark VII production
October 1942 Supermarine started mark XII production
November 1942 Supermarine started mark VIII and XI production, finished mark VI production.
December 1942 Castle Bromwich finished Vb production
It claims there were 4 basic Spitfire airframes which it labels A, B, C and D
A was the original which served for the marks I, II, IV. It was stretched to do the Va, Vb, VI, PR VII and XIII and the Seafire I.
B was the airframe developed from the abortive mark III fighter, it was used for the Vc, IX and XII, and presumably XVI. The main change appears to be the "universal" wing.
C was the mark VII, VIII and most Griffon marks up to XIX
D was the mark 21 onwards.
Mark III prototype first flew on 15 March 1940. Second prototype first flight 4 June 1941. The pressure for fighter numbers was in the first half of 1941, expecting round 2 of the Battle of Britain. While Frank's Fighter Command Losses books are incomplete he records 232 RAF fighters lost January to June 1941, then 499 in the second half of the year. The book notes 186 fighter losses in October and November 1940. Spitfire losses in the first half of 1941 are put at 118, with another 406 in the second half of 1941, of the 406 over half, 217, were in July and August 1941, almost reaching the 239 lost in August and September 1940. Spitfire production was 125 in January 1941, peak for the year was 276 in September. The pressure on the Spitfire numbers was to phase out the Hurricane, so 19 Spitfire out of 60 day fighter squadrons in January 1941 to 58 out of 70 in January 1942.
The RAF sent a few offensive day fighter sorties to France in December 1940, stepping up raids in January, the first Circus was on 10 January, an escorted bomber force.
January 1941, Supermarine produced 1 mark Va and the prototype mark VI.
March 1941 Supermarine finished mark I and started mark Va and b production and Castle Bromwich started IIb production.
May 1941 Supermarine finished PR.III production, Castle Bromwich started mark Vb production
June 1941 Supermarine finished mark Va production, started PR.IV production.
July 1941 Castle Bromwich finished IIa and b production, apart from a laggard IIa in October. Westland started mark I production.
October 1941 Supermarine started mark Vc production.
December 1941 Supermarine started mark VI production, Westland finished mark I and started mark Vb production.
February 1942 Supermarine finished mark Vb production
April 1942 Westland started mark Vc production.
June 1942 Supermarine started mark IX production, Westland finished mark Vb production, Castle Bromwich makes 1 mark Vc
August 1942 Castle Bromwich started Vc production
September 1942 Supermarine finished mark Vc production, started mark VII production
October 1942 Supermarine started mark XII production
November 1942 Supermarine started mark VIII and XI production, finished mark VI production.
December 1942 Castle Bromwich finished Vb production
wuzak
Captain
I would have thought the Mk.III was the basis of the VII, VIII and XIV.
The first prototype III had a different wing, and the second prototype had a standard wing, IIRC.
The standard of fighter pilot training declined during 1940 and it was mid-1941 before the position got any better. Through most of 1941 the numbers of fighter pilots killed and injured in flying accidents exceeded those lost in combat. There is a lot of information in this article from the British Journal for Military History.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 867
- Feb 16, 2013
Perhaps Hawker could have focused their efforts on the "Typhoon Mk.II" a little sooner. They were well aware of the NACA low drag wing, in March 1940, long before the Typhoon entered service. Take a delay on the Typhoon, and introduce the Tempest instead.
Maybe then the Fury and Sea Fury could have been in service by 1944
Maybe then the Fury and Sea Fury could have been in service by 1944
According to Tony Buttler "Tempest. Hawker's Outstanding Piston-Engined Fighter", Hawker wasn't able to start work on the wing until Sept 1941 "because of the demand for Hurricanes". It was at that point that they proposed the Typhoon II aka Tempest to MAP. There was then a general "lack of drive" which Sydney Camm admitted to, while at the same time overpromising what was possible. At that point the aircraft envisaged was the Sabre IV powered Tempest I
Thats true, the MkIII became the MkVIII and then re-engined to make the MkXIV, the best models of Spitfire.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I have nothing of value to add to this conversation but wanted to give props to
BarnOwlLover
for his excellent avatar... 
BarnOwlLover
for his excellent avatar... 
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
One, I was just thinking of when/where someone would bring that up.
Two, as for the Spitfire III, yes, it would've been great if it made it to production, as it probably could've been equal at least to the Fw-190. I don't know how much the Mk III inspired the Mk VII or Mk VIII, aside from the fact that the two Spitfire IIIs built were used by Supermarine and Rolls-Royce for Merlin 60 series development and that info was used to develop the Mk VII/VIII. Of course, the Fw-190 showing up when it did lead to the Mk IX becoming the "definitive" two stage Merlin development of the Spitfire, which was a Spitfire I/II/V adapted to the two stage Merlin. Which means that the Mk VII/VIII were a relative footnote in terms of production.
Also, they were mostly used in the MTO/CBI/PTO due to their longer range. Being optimized for the Merlin 60 from the start, having more internal fuel and a retractable tail wheel (the latter also used on the Mk III, as well as increased fuel capacity) were the main differences from the IX.
All Spitfires (and even the Spiteful) used the same basic fuselage structure from the Mk I to the Mk 24 from the cockpit firewall to the tail.
Two, as for the Spitfire III, yes, it would've been great if it made it to production, as it probably could've been equal at least to the Fw-190. I don't know how much the Mk III inspired the Mk VII or Mk VIII, aside from the fact that the two Spitfire IIIs built were used by Supermarine and Rolls-Royce for Merlin 60 series development and that info was used to develop the Mk VII/VIII. Of course, the Fw-190 showing up when it did lead to the Mk IX becoming the "definitive" two stage Merlin development of the Spitfire, which was a Spitfire I/II/V adapted to the two stage Merlin. Which means that the Mk VII/VIII were a relative footnote in terms of production.
Also, they were mostly used in the MTO/CBI/PTO due to their longer range. Being optimized for the Merlin 60 from the start, having more internal fuel and a retractable tail wheel (the latter also used on the Mk III, as well as increased fuel capacity) were the main differences from the IX.
All Spitfires (and even the Spiteful) used the same basic fuselage structure from the Mk I to the Mk 24 from the cockpit firewall to the tail.
wuzak
Captain
The IX was the interim aircraft, having been put into production quickly, using Mk.V airframes with the Merlin 60-series.
The VII/VIII were the definitive 2 stage Merlin Spitfires - these were the planned 2 stage Merlin Spitfires.
Similarly, the XIV was an interim Griffon Spitfire until the definitive 20 series Spitfires, with their new wing an 4 cannon armament, became available.
The VII/VIII were the definitive 2 stage Merlin Spitfires - these were the planned 2 stage Merlin Spitfires.
Similarly, the XIV was an interim Griffon Spitfire until the definitive 20 series Spitfires, with their new wing an 4 cannon armament, became available.
Not sure they could have hurried the Merlin 60 series development that much. RR was already pretty laser focused on that one. Perhaps what could have been done is ramping production faster, setting up more shadow factories etc. And same for the Griffon, but hard to say to which extent more focus on Griffon would have taken away from the Merlin.
The other UK piston engine projects OTOH, well. In retrospect they could have thrown them all on the scrap heap, provided they could have instead used those factories for producing Merlins and Griffons. That's of course much easier to say in retrospect, and certainly the Air Ministry had good reasons for not wanting to put all their eggs in one basket.
And they should have allocated more resources elsewhere than firebombing German civilians with modest military effectiveness, appalling loss rates, and questionable morality (perhaps telling that of the UK service chiefs, Bomber Harris was the one not awarded a peerage post-war). E.g. more of the long-range 4 engines planes dedicated to Coastal Command for use against u-boats. And more Mosquito production instead of the slow heavies.
The other UK piston engine projects OTOH, well. In retrospect they could have thrown them all on the scrap heap, provided they could have instead used those factories for producing Merlins and Griffons. That's of course much easier to say in retrospect, and certainly the Air Ministry had good reasons for not wanting to put all their eggs in one basket.
And they should have allocated more resources elsewhere than firebombing German civilians with modest military effectiveness, appalling loss rates, and questionable morality (perhaps telling that of the UK service chiefs, Bomber Harris was the one not awarded a peerage post-war). E.g. more of the long-range 4 engines planes dedicated to Coastal Command for use against u-boats. And more Mosquito production instead of the slow heavies.
Shortround6
Major General
Well, after the BoB covers a lot of time.
More twins to CC in 1940-41 would have done about as well as more 4 engine bombers.
The mid Atlantic gap didn't really exist until later. The Germans didn't have that many long range boats and they could hunt the closer range waters almost as easy until better escorts and air patrols drove them to safer waters (mid Atlantic). Improve things around the British Isles first, then worry about mid Atlantic gap.
Mosquito strategic bombing has been gone over many times.
Major change in Production needs more wood. Much of the wood in imported and the Balsa came from Ecuador/Honduras?
You also need the 1944 Mosquitos in 1942-43.
1st ten Mosquito bombers held four 250lbs, then they cut the fins on the 500lb bombs and managed to stuff in four of them. You don't get the 4000lb bomb until 1944.
Perhaps things could have been speeded up a bit but you need advances in bomb types, more powerful Merlins and better navigation systems to get 1944 results in 1942-43.
Also note that the 4000lb bomb was an area weapon when dropped at high altitude. It did not have very good accuracy with that shape, not that the teardrop shape bombes were that good either
wuzak
Captain
Also note that the 4000lb bomb was an area weapon when dropped at high altitude. It did not have very good accuracy with that shape, not that the teardrop shape bombes were that good either
There was a 4000lb MC bomb as well as the HC.
Shortround6
Major General
true but the main point is that the Mosquito only held 2000lbs of bombs inside (and a pair of 500lbs outside) until 1944, plans had started earlier.
This is rather late to change major bombing strategy. It took several years to decide on which planes to use, build the appropriate factories and build the appropriate engine factories and so on.
This is a "what if" so different choices can be made but they would have had to have been made at appropriate times in order to take effect.
14th May 1939, first flight by Short Stirling.
25th July 1939, first flight by Manchester.
13th August 1939, first flight by Warwick.
25th October 1939, first flight by Halifax.
25th November 1940, first flight by a Mosquito
8th September 1941, first flight by Mosquito MK IV bomber.
It also appears that the 4000lb MC bomb was 1 1/2 to 2 years later in timing than the 4000lb HC bomb. Part of the 4000lb HC design requirements were the ability to be dropped by a Wellington.
