RAF WWII roundel colours

[snapdragon]

I recently bought some paints (MRP) that are for RAF insignia, Marking Red, Yellow and Oxford blue (BS 105).

Comparing them to in register cartograph decals the red and yellow look correct, but the blue looks a bit off.

I could have thought that I read somewhere that the blue in the roundel was BS 105 Oxford blue, but now I am having doubts as MRP in their RAF WWII range have a BS 106 Marking Blue.

Have I bought the wrong blue?
Has anyone actually compared this stuff to the correct paint?

I must admit that I am impressed at the way it sprays, and the way it goes down, but it is not exactly matt in finish, unless the plastic spoons reflection is showing through. It is enamel acrylic and so I have found that AK Xtreme cleaner works to clean the airbrush.

Just waiting for replacement plastic spoons so I can do a test on a matt surface.

Anyone else out there have experience with this paint?


James

 

[Wurger]

Judging by your info you bought the MRP-183 Oxford Blue BS105. The colour looks like the blue used for post war roundels. According to my references the colour should be the FS 35044 Insignia Blue also called Dull Blue. Your colour is FS 15050 and was used for post-war helicopters and VIP aircraft rather. But other references say that the FS 15050 was the one used from 1938 to 1946. So it is up to you which one you will choose.

IMHO you need the MRP-124 WWII RAF Marking Blue for the darker markings or the MRP-183 for the lighter or faded ones.

 

[snapdragon]

That's great! I shall order a bottle

Thank you so much

 

[John D]

Camouflage & Markings No. 2, "The Battle for Britain - RAF May to December 1940" by Paul Lucas, states on page 88:

"Blue
This was the dull identification colour used in national markings from 1937 until the post-war roundel was introduced in 1947 when Bright Blue replaced it. It then fell from use and was not included in the MoS colour range.
There is no BS 381C match for this colour. The closest FS 595 colour is 35048"

Federal Standard 595 Color FS 35048

 

[fubar57]

It looks like a faded version on my laptop

 

[Wurger]

It looks like. Actually the FS 35048 and FS 15050 are the same paint if you take the background it was applied on or a way of applying into consideration.

the pic source: the Internet.

 

[John D]

The problem appears to stem from the fact that many reference sources match WWII British colours to BS 381C. However, according to Lucas, Ministry of Supply (MoS) Standards were supplementary to BSS 381 and it was not until 1964 that aircraft colours were included in BS 381C. "Anyone intending to obtain a copy of BS 381C (as it became in 1948), should note that they will require the 1930 and 1964 editions...as subsequent editions dropped several of the aircraft colours menioned here". (see page 84 of Lucas' well-researched book)

As an indication that identifying FS 35044 as a WWII RAF blue roundel colour is the result of referring to BS 381C, in the January 1973 edition of Radio Control Modeler (page 6 & 8), Dave Platt actually refers to BS 381C as the source of comparison in identifying WWII RAF roundel blue as FS 35044.

While stating that there is no BS 381C match for WWII RAF roundel blue, however, Paul Lucas does not say what his source was for matching it to FS 35048. He may have matched it to some relics (and his book does contain references to such items) or he may have matched it to period colour chips, I don't know.

 

[snapdragon]

After playing about I have done this. The red and yellow match (to my eyes) What do you chaps think about the blue? Decals are cartograf

 

[fubar57]

106 looks good to me

 

[Crimea_River]

With Geo. 106.

 

[Wurger]

Agree. The BS106 .

 

[buffnut453]

Hate to be a nattering nabob of negativism but it's impossible to judge which blue is best because there are too many reflections and shadows on the decal and the spoons. Unlike the red and yellow spoons, we don't have a clear location where either of the blue spoons touch the underlying decal at a point where direct colour comparison can be made.

 

[Airframes]

I agree.
If anything, allowing for the above mentioned reflections, I would go with either the 105, or somewhere between the two.
Even allowing for the highlights and reflections on the spoon, the 106 looks rather light in shade, more towards azure or PRU blue.

 

[buffnut453]

It must also be remembered that pre-war RAF roundels used bright shades. The wartime dull colours we're introduced in 1938 but existing stocks of bright colours continued to be used. Therefore one needs to be careful and, if possible, confirm which shade(s) was/were used on the aircraft being modelled. For example, fin flashes applied to Far East Blenheims in the period after May 1940 appear to have used the bright colours while the roundels had the dull colours.

 

[Crimea_River]

My opinion was based on the assumption that the dull colour was what was asked for and that some fading would be experienced in the field, making it entirely appropriate for a model. I'd suggest the 106 sample is much, much darker than Azure Blue.

 

[BOBC]

Hi, Battle of Britain 1940 saw the use of the bright red and bright blue, clealry evident in many colour photos from then (not those coloured up things...hate !) the duller red oxide ish red and the darker less saturated blue came in and was widespread a bit later on. I dont see model paint makers making the early war colours much. Colourcoats have BS105 oxford Blue and BS381c 110 RAF Roundel Blue, though looking at both these clours on google sees a myriad of blues, internet useless at portraying anything as such, actually the image posters are at fault. as the screen can only display the RGB its given.
I may be right in saying Oxford Blue is the earlier blue, anyone care to chip in ? Wish I knew what red they sell for the early roundels. they sell BS538 and I see Xtracolor have that as post office red but those darn colour squares in google images have it looking more like the later war red oxideish colour. Sovereign Hobbies need to say which red it is for.
Rear of the book British Aviation Colours of World War Two , RAF Museum Series Volume 3 1976 colour paint chart (paint not print) which is THE BOOK BAR NONE) has names Matt Red and Matt Blue and the colours look like I would expect. I hope Jamie at Colourcoats has matched to those.
That aside, your yellow spoon looks canaty yellow, RAF Trainer Yellow is in that book, and that is the only accurate yellow, its not the BS381c 356 folk mention, there is NO colour ref except that book. beware model paint makers match to the BS381C 356 and its wrong. They cant be bothered to get hold of that chart. I compare Bs381C 356 to my 1976 book and the yellows ARE DIFFERENT. Peter Vacher's book on the Hurricane said so in the back as well.
Don't assume decals are right , wrong reference to match to if wanting to get colours as they really were.

BOBC

 

[thunderbird]

i had to research this issue last week after the upper wing decals on my Revell Mk IX went south. I'm not sure what went wrong but it was one of the first attempts to use microsol amd microset. After the decals failed to conform using my normal methods. Then the decals bubbled up when i tried to seal them with a glossy acrylic.

Found some sources that said roundel blue is similar to fsx5050, blue angel blue, (the first digit in an fs number refers to luster, 1 being gloss, 2, for satin, and 3 for dull); i found a source for modelmaster fs25050 paint on evilbay. but it was going to take a month or so to get delivered. Not wanting to wait a month, i went to the local hardware store and picked up a rattle can of krylon navy. It colormatches perfectly to my eye, or at least good enough that i can't tell the difference and i don't think anyone else will be able to tell the difference by naked eye.

And now i have a lifetime supply of RAF roundel blue.