Ready for El Alamein: ideal British tanks

[Juha]

I agree with yulzari, Valentine was smaller and cheaper and at least in Soviet Union worked much better than Matilda. It was the only British tank SU wanted more. It wasn'ta perfect tank but at its time the only reliable British gun tank and I meant the time before Cromwell.

Juha

 

[stug3]

88mm anti-tank gun that was captured and restored to working condition by Australian troops, 3 November 1942.

A salvo of bombs from Martin Baltimores of No. 21 Squadron SAAF explodes on enemy transport on the road between el Daba and Fuka, Egypt, at the start of the enemy's withdrawal from the Battle of El Alamein. 465 Allied aircraft attacked the slow-moving columns retreating westwards along the coast road in the afternoon of 3 November 1942, destroying an estimated 300 vehicles.

Burnt-out trucks on the El Alamein battlefield, 3 November 1942.

Daylight attack on Tobruk harbour by five Consolidated Liberators of the 12th USAAF, which resulted in the destruction of the Italian Naval auxiliary vessel, BRIONI and extensive damage to the harbour installations.

From The Rommel Papers:

Despite our frequent reminders, the vehicles promised by Barbassetti had still not arrived, and so the Italians had to march. Dense columns of vehicles were already streaming westwards. The Italian infantry marched off and soon the road was full of traffic. But the British soon spotted our move and attacked the coast road with about 200 Fighter-bombers. Their bomber squadrons were also extremely active that day.

The Afrika Korps alone was attacked no less than eleven times during the morning by strong formations of bombers.

At about midday I returned to my command post, only just escaping, by some frantic driving, a carpet of bombs laid by 18 British aircraft. At 13.30 hours an order arrived from the Fuehrer.

To Field Marshal Rommel

It is with trusting confidence in your leadership and the courage of the German-Italian troops under your command that the German people and I are following the heroic struggle in Egypt.

In the situation in which you find yourself there can be no other thought but to stand fast, yield not a yard of ground and throw every gun and every man into the battle. Considerable air force reinforcements are being sent to C.in C. South.

The Duce and the Commando Supremo are also making the utmost efforts to send you the means to continue the fight. Your enemy, despite his superiority, must also be at the end of his strength.

It would not be the first time in history that a strong will has triumphed over the bigger battalions. As to your troops, you can show them no other road than that to victory or death.

Adolf Hitler

Rommel was to describe this as an 'impossible order' – he was 'completely stunned' by it. From now on he was to find his freedom of movement and decision making constantly curtailed by Hitler. If he wanted to preserve his Army he would have to find ways to circumvent Hitler in the future.

 

[vinnye]

What do people think to the Crusader III - with 6 pounder gun? A lot of the earlier problems had been ironed out - so reliability no longer a big issue.
Maybe if this was available in quantity, its speed and gun would nave given PZIII and IV a run for their money?

 

[Glider]

I agree they would have been a good response to the Pz III/IV. They were more vulnerable than the german tanks but both sides would have been capable of destroying the other which evens things up.

 

[stug3]

Handley Page Halifax B Mark IIs of No. 462 Squadron RAAF parked on the perimeter track at Fayid, Egypt, before a night sortie against enemy columns retreating after the Battle of El Alamein.

Battle Of Egypt: Thrill For British Tank Crew. Picture Shows: A near miss raises a column of sand near a British heavy tank, during the Eighth Army's victorious advance. (looks like a Grant)

A Crusader II tank of the 9th Queen's Royal Lancers, 2nd Armoured Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, moving at speed, 5 November 1942

Crusader tanks of the 9th Queen's Royal Lancers, 2nd Armoured Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, moving at speed across the desert, 5 November 1942.

Keith Douglas was now in the stream of British Armour breaking out from the bridgehead. His group of Crusader tanks were flying along at 30mph, flinging up huge clouds of dust and overrunning small groups of enemy all the time.

He found himself at the head of the whole 8th Army for a brief period of time, engaging enemy tanks at long distance – tanks which quickly turned tail. It was while he was stopped refuelling that he missed out on the brief 'Battle of Galal station' in which the remainder of his Squadron overcame a number of Italian tanks.

It was here that he went looting and he was soon kitted out in brand new German clothing – 'everything apart from boots and socks'. He already had a Luger and a Beretta so went looking in the Italian tanks for a Beretta for a friend of his who had been wounded and evacuated:
I approached a brand-new-painted MI3, with no sign of any damage, from which the crew had apparently fled at the sight of their comrades' discomfiture.

There was a promising cask and a sack on the outside of the tank, which we opened. But the cask only contained water, and the sack nothing but little round tins with a smelly Italian kind of bully beef in them.

So I climbed on to the turret – the small side doors which stood open on most of the other tanks were closed. I prepared to lower myself through he top. It was dark in the turret, and I leant over the manhole first, trying to accustom my eyes to the darkness and to see if there were any Birettas on the side shelves inside. A faint sweet smell came up to me which reminded me of the dead horse I once saw cut up for our instruction at the Equitation School.

Gradually the objects in the turret became visible: the crew of the tank – for, I believe, these tanks did not hold more than two – were, so to speak, distributed round the turret. At first it was diflicult to work out how the limbs were arranged. They lay in a clumsy embrace, their white faces whiter, as those of dead men in the desert always were, for the light powdering of dust on them.

One with a six-inch hole in his head, the whole skull smashed in behind the remains of an ear – the other covered with his own and his friend's blood, held up by the blue steel mechanism of a machine-gun, his legs twisting among the dully gleaming gear levers. About them clung that impenetrable silence I have mentioned before, by which I think the dead compel our reverence.

I got a Biretta from another tank on the other side of the railway line.

Others had rather better luck in their searches:
In the evening we closed into night leaguer, facing westwards again. Tom was in high spirits; he and Ken Tinker had found an Italian hospital, and their tanks were loaded inside and out with crates of cherries, Macedonian cigarettes, cigars and wine; some straw-jacketed Italian Chianti wine, some champagne, and a bottle or two of brandy, even some Liebfraumilch.

We shared out the plunder with the immemorial glee of conquerors, and beneath the old star-eaten blanket of the sky
lay down to dream of victory.

 

[Shortround6]

A problem with the up gunned British tanks is that the turrets were back to 2 man turrets. While a 6pdr that penetrates is better than a 2pdr that bounces off the target the two man turret is a serious handicap. Rates of fire are lower than a good 3 man turret and rates of engagement are even worse. Rate of engagement is how many separate targets the tank can engage in a given period of time. If the Commander is busy stuffing shells into the gun breech he is not spotting new targets/threats and not keeping up with the tactical situation.

A Valentine with a 6pdr is little better than a fancy self propelled gun. 6pdr HE ammo was a scarce as hens teeth for the first year or two of the guns service and the lack of a machine gun meant the tank was of very, very little use for infantry support. When the Valentine X does show up with a co-ax MG the 1575 rounds provided (7 belts) cost 9 rounds of main gun ammo, down to 44 rounds. Crusader III carried 73 rounds of main gun ammo and up to 4950 rounds of MG ammo (22 belts). A Churchill III could carry 85 rounds of main gun ammo and 7875 rounds of MG ammo.

 

[stug3]

Sherman tanks of 'C' Squadron, 9th Queen's Royal Lancers, 2nd Armoured Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, 5 November 1942

Lt General Bernard Montgomery, GOC 8th Army, standing in front of his personal Grant tank, 5 November 1942.

 

[parsifal]

Luv the photos Stug....keep em coming mate

 

[stug3]

A German 88mm gun abandoned near the coast road, west of El Alamein, 7 November 1942.

The commander of a Stuart tank scans the ground ahead through field glasses before giving the order to advance, Cyrenaica, November 1942

A Grant tank and trucks make their way along a road flooded by recent rains while in pursuit of the enemy, 10 November 1942.

Grant and Lee tanks of 'C' Squadron, 4th (Queen's Own) Hussars, 2nd Armoured Brigade, El Alamein position, Egypt, 7 July 1942.

2nd Lieutenant Winston Churchill of the 4th Queen's Own Hussars in 1895

 

[Juha]

A problem with the up gunned British tanks is that the turrets were back to 2 man turrets. While a 6pdr that penetrates is better than a 2pdr that bounces off the target the two man turret is a serious handicap. Rates of fire are lower than a good 3 man turret and rates of engagement are even worse. Rate of engagement is how many separate targets the tank can engage in a given period of time. If the Commander is busy stuffing shells into the gun breech he is not spotting new targets/threats and not keeping up with the tactical situation.

A Valentine with a 6pdr is little better than a fancy self propelled gun. 6pdr HE ammo was a scarce as hens teeth for the first year or two of the guns service and the lack of a machine gun meant the tank was of very, very little use for infantry support. When the Valentine X does show up with a co-ax MG the 1575 rounds provided (7 belts) cost 9 rounds of main gun ammo, down to 44 rounds. Crusader III carried 73 rounds of main gun ammo and up to 4950 rounds of MG ammo (22 belts). A Churchill III could carry 85 rounds of main gun ammo and 7875 rounds of MG ammo.

That's true, the very limited interior space was one of the drawbacks of the small size of Valentine. And as always, when the boffins failed to deliver, soldiers tried to improvise. Crews came up with a novel way of using a machinegun from inside the hull by fitting a solenoid-fired Browning MG into a 6-pdr shell-case. When needed, this was inserted into the 6-pdr breech and the solenoid cable connected, allowing the gunner to aim it using the main gun elevating gear, traverse and telescope. I have no idea, how much mg ammo they carried along.

Juha

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you for that information.

 

[fastmongrel]

I cant see a Browning .303 fitting in a 6 pdr case with any ammunition. Looking at the top photo the case is only going to be about 75 to 80mm wide at its widest

In this photo it looks like the RAF Browning is going to be a tight fit

A picture just to give some idea of the size of the 6 pdr case. It might be possible to fit a Browning in the case but wheres the ammo belt going to go unless the base of the case was removed and the Breech of the Browning stuck out past the breech of the 6 pounder.

 

[Juha]

...It might be possible to fit a Browning in the case but wheres the ammo belt going to go unless the base of the case was removed and the Breech of the Browning stuck out past the breech of the 6 pounder.

IMHO that was the only reasonable solution anyway, otherwise one would have soon run into problems with spent catriages. But don't ask how they handled the belt etc. I haven't seen any photos or drawings on the system.

Juha

 

[fastmongrel]

Gunner "Quick boss I need to fire the Browning" Tank Captain "Hang on a minute I have to open the breech get rid of the round up the spout pick up an unweildy bastard mix of MG and 6 pounder case load it fix it in place connect the firing solenoid and load the damn thing then make sure the belt isnt going to catch on anything" Gunner "Forget the bloody Browning load AP load load now theres a MkIII coming" Tank Captain " Oh shi..." Boom.

 

[Juha]

Hello Fastmongrel
Old army saying here is "a lonely tank is a dead tank" so probably more like some tanks acting like female and some like male WWI tanks, or like 75mm and 17pdr Shermans in 44-45. I looked a photo of army .300 Browning and draw a conclusion that system would have been more practical with Besa.

Juha

 

[fastmongrel]

Hi Juha

As an ex Cheiftain tank loader it just seems to me a horrendously impractical device in what must have been already an undersized cluttered turret. Also as the breech of the Browning is inside the turret as it fires its going to fill the tank up with cordite fumes because the RAF Browning fired from an open bolt. Of course any M/G fired inside a confined space is bad but one that works off an open bolt and is contained entirely inside the turret is not going to be a nice experience for the gunner who will be deaf, blinded and coughing. At least the Boss can poke his head out the hatch.

Surprised no one came up with something more practical like an externally mounted M/G on the turret roof with a linkage to the mantlet for elevation. It could have worked, various tanks used a similar method for elevating rocket launchers.

 

[Juha]

Hello fastmongrel
IMHO the cordite fumes should not have been an insurmountable obstacle, if in Valentine Mk IX there was a fan in the roof of the turret just for removing the fumes, at least there was one in Cromwell, PzKpfw IV, V, VI and VIB. The belt should not has been a problem, in the only lmg I have ever fired, KvKk 62 see:
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9459/fdf108373732003762kvkk623cr.jpg

a 100 round belt was put in a canvas bag, at least in my platoon there was no problems with that system. In Browning one problem would have been that the belt went in and spent catriages were ejected so forward, in Besa (and in KvKk 62) these happened clearly nearer the trigger, so one could put more of the gun inside the 6pdr catriage. I cannot recall anything special of the noise of the firing of KvKk 62, at least its noise didn't left any memory contrary to the firing a RPG or being rather near an explosions of ex-LW SC 50 bomb or 10kg A/T mine those noises were very powerful. On the other hand Suomi smg left impression of a toy gun it was so silent after the experience of firing my assault rifle. But of course I fired the Kvkk 62 only in the open or from a foxhole and not from a steel box.

Juha

 

[fastmongrel]

Hi Juha

From experience the co axial M/G when fired in a Chieftain made a hell of a racket. Surprisingly actually louder than the 120mm firing which was more of a thump to your body than a noise. I often didnt wear a helmet when buttoned up in the turret because I am 6 foot (1.83m) tall and I kept clonking the bulky helmet on the various protuding parts that a tank turret insides is cluttered with, so I just wore a beret and headphones and learnt to duck. A Chief is laid out differently to a WWII british tank but still you are surprisingly close to the M/G.

 

[Juha]

Hello
I checked the fan question, Valentine as well as Crusander got the ventilator fan when they got the 6pdr.

Juha

 

[stug3]

15.11.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
from George Orwell's diary-

15.11.42

Church bells rung this morning – in celebration of the victory in Egypt. The first time that I have heard them in over two years.