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"Aeroelasticity" is a new one to me, but, if the Spitfire wing was so weak, how did 2nd TAF manage to hang a couple of 250lb. bombs under the wings of the IX, XVI XIV? As far as I remember the 109 could only carry a single bomb under the fuselage.
scrapped man.. all the a/b/c/d/e/f's/g-1 through g-4s, were scapped/recycled/ coverted to trainers/ etc., same with most other RLM a/c's. Minus the ones shot down of course. point being, there gone. in the states, they produced what? 100,000,000 cars since day 1.. where did they go?
Blame Hitler? All I said was that psycho path killed himself. Trying to be funny. Guess it didn't work :/
Mr GregP
1)I would suggest that perhaps you should study better the history of the arial warfare on the eastern front. the only reason VVS gained superiority was the withdrawl of the german fighter wings to the germany. JG52 ,JG 51, JG54 were the only fighter units in the east during the time frame you mention. Check their kill-losses ratio.
2)Hartmann was never shot down by fighter, Barkhorn was in May 44 (Surprised and badly wounded ) after nearly 1000 missions, Lipfert never in nearly 700missions ( 1943-45) BY FIGHTER
3)When the Soviets were ignoring the higher flying German , the result was that the germans simply bounced them ,scored victories , and climbed back at altitude again. Its the most basic fighter tactic of all times. What makes you believe that they did not use an altitude advantage.
4) No matter what the alleid test pilots said( Like the crude , unprofessional and misleading report posted above), no matter what modern pilots say ( who actually dont want to admit that they cannot fly the 109 as the operational pilots) , Bf 109 was capable to turn with late russian planes and if properly flown and properly built , outfight them.
5) Of course P39 could shoot down German planes. There were excellent rusiian pilots too, and P39s always enjoyed great numerical superiority.
6) LW never stoped operating on the eastern front. Fws, 109s, Me 262s even JU87 and Go 145 trainers!!! were flying against the asian hordes in 1945. Lipfert in early April 45 had orders to disband his unit and stop flying. He asked permission to continiue combat flying just becausae he had 199 kills. Do you think an terrifeid, outperformed,lier ,with an obselete aircraft , pilot would do such a thing ?
Luftwaffe in the east was overhelmed but not bitten !
7)German troops were not defeted by the Soviets, were crushed by the American people s superb productivity,.
At the end of the war, the allies scrapped approximately 6000 airframes, thats all the airframes you can attribute to scrapping at the end of the war. The rest were destroyed whilst hostilities were in progress. No significant "speed bumps" in 1945 to suggest a bonanza of aircraft destroyed by crews just before surrender. Losses were heavy and sustained throughout the war.
ill say it again, your figures dont add up, your excuse that hitler destroyed them doesnt wash, and now your claim that more than the known 6000 were destroyed at the end of the war is also falling down around your ears as well.
And for the record, you arent very funny either
I fear that you version has lost something in translation; taken from the file in the National Archives in London. "Nothing to choose between them" never appears.
You are (deliberately?) missing the point; the remark was made that the Spitfire wing flexed too much, making manouevring unsafe. This forgets (ignores) that the 109 carried only a single .303" gun in each wing, while the Spitfire I could carry 4 x .303" (87 lbs,) later the IX carried 2 with 1 20mm cannon (150lbs) all outside the propeller arc, and, when rewired, could also carry a 250 lb bomb. Even Malta Spitfire Vs, some with 2 cannon and 2 .303" (260lb) could carry 250lb bombs to Sicily, under their wings. With all that weight, they were still cleared for combat, so how was the 109 wing so much stronger?The gondola cannon 109 carried each weight 250 lbs.. about. How is this different from a 250 lbs bomb under each wing? And 109 was clear for manouver in this setup. I know that was variant of 109G with droptank under wing... 300 liter, each. Fuel is like - 0,70 kg / liter.. plus weight of tanks. So it is capable carry 500 lbs each wing..
I've read Hans-Werner Lerche's book on flying and testing captured Allied aircraft, and he and his colleagues managed to evaluate airfrrames (some severely damaged) without having recourse to manuals; you seem to be implying that Allied test pilots, some with many hours of test flying and combat experience, did not possess equal competence to deal with strange aircraft.You said about English tests runs.. I am sure they are made in good intent, but people of better knownledge this subject point out familiarity with 109 type was not great, and that plane captured was bad condition. Often case of captured plane I would say
The tests were on the Tempest versus a Tyhoon, Spitfire XIV, Mustang III, Fw190 the 109G; there are six pages, four of which deal with differences from the Typhoon, and, with the best will in the world, I'm not putting that little lot on here. I really think "lying" is a little strong, after all we don't know if Price saw the original handwritten (probably) report; my copy came from the version sent to the Air Ministry. Files sent to Kew are held, closed to viewing, for a minimum of 25 years from when they're presented, so it's anyone's guess where his information came from.It is a reasonable paraphrase, but I had thought he was making a direct quote. He should've mentioned he was paraphrasing.
He also specifies it was a G-2 used in the test. Is there more detail to this report in other pages perhaps? How could he specify that based on your reproduction, unless there is more? Either that or he's lying.
Spot on; the "Test Pilots' Flight" (one Wing Commander + one technical officer) assembled in May, 1943, with the first 13 students arriving in June. It was renamed Test Pilots' School soon after, and became the Empire Test Pilots' School in early 1944. They were helped by A AEE and RAE Farnborough, and there were other organisations like the Air Fighting Development Unit and Fighter Interception Unit, which weighed in.AFAIK the Brits were the first to set up a formal test pilot school in 1943,
Thanks, this explains a lot. I suspected that flight test procedures were significantly different than now. I remember talking to flight test pilots and was taken aback by what they did mostly, fly with 3 degrees of left bank for 3 minutes, fly 3 degrees of right bank for three minutes, fly 5 degrees of left bank for 3 minutes, fly ......etc, etc. This was certainly not the image I had of flight test. However, I did see some F-5 stall test videos where the aircraft was tumbling end over end, something you don't see very often.Folks, do understand that many captured aircraft evaluation reports are poorly written by today's standards. AFAIK there was no real formal "Test Pilot School" anywhere in the world prior to 1943 that had a standard curriculum and formal training. Some test pilots during that period had a background in engineering, some didn't and had more balls then brains, some were very good stick and rudder men and in many situations just described what they experienced to an engineer who would make final evaluations (Tony LeVier and Kelly Johnson were famous for having verbal exchanges when Tony became Lockheed's chief test pilot). AFAIK the Brits were the first to set up a formal test pilot school in 1943, USAAF in 44 and the USN in 1945.
Show me where I said Hilter detroyed the remaining aircraft. The only thing Hitler destroyed in the end was Germany.
Do you have figures on how many German a/c the russians destroyed after the war? In East Prussia/poland/hungary/austria/chez/yugoslavia/rumania? if you do please post.
You honestly think the Allies shot down all day fighters up to the mid-1943? rather then then the Germans scrapped/recycled/converted? if you do please post.
whats the favor?Do me a favour Ratsel . I hve been told by reputable sources that a manual for German pilots was not easily accessable to the pilots . I'm given to understand that the rather then using a manual and to quote this particular Experten the the flight charecteristics were beat into their head in class . I've had the opportunity to talk more then a few pilots that are either current on type or flew the thing back when . As a matter of fact the 109 I was associated with had no manual at all and it is a flyer
Did the LW pilots have flight manualswhats the favor?
"You need to shoot straighter and answer the questions, like how many German aircraft were lost, not a select sample of some of the fighters lost compared to the total losses for the Soviets, so that comparability is built into your figures."
this is a ME 109 thread is it not? If it was about German bombers, I'd post stats for that. Point being, your also not looking at the whole picture of what happened in Germany.
"And if the destruction was on the ground, or in the air, whether it was by German demolition teams or by advancing Russians, is irrelelvant"
it IS very relelvant, as you asked " what happened to all the aircraft ". I gave you the answer on what happened to most that was not shot down.
of course, you can find them on the net. I have two, one in German one in English translation. Whether they refered to them all all, I suspose so.Did the LW pilots have flight manuals