Reichsverteidigung

Erich, hallo:

Let me see if I fully understood your posting regarding december 23, 1944:

POINT 1. GERMAN CLAIMS-VICTORIES

1.1 Fw190s of IV.(sturm)/JG 3 were credited with the following kills that particular day -official kills according to the geschwader records-:

31 B-26s and
3 P-47S.

Is point 1.1 correct?

1.2 I/ JG 11 destroyed 2 B-17s
II/JG 11 destroyed 25 B-26s.

Is point 1.2 correct?


POINT 2. 9th Air Force reported losses are:

42 B-26s
14 P-47s
2 P-38s

Is point 2 correct?


POINT 3. 8th Air Force reported losses are:

1 B-17
5 P-51s
3 P-47s

Is point 3 correct?


POINT 4. What you meant there is that when you interviewed a pair of historians of B-26 groups they told you "absolutely nothing happened on december 23, 1944"?

Also that the webpage they referred is garbbage?

Are your thoughts they hid records?



So 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded for the Germans. In fact high losses.

Now 42 B-26s lost in accordance with the records of the 9th Air force alone makes 294 pilots and airmen lost. More than 5 times the total German losses of men.

Are we trying to dispute the number of casualties by the 9th Airforce here or what exactly are we trying to dispute?

Udet I think the JG 11 claims are a bit high, but the two 9th AF historians and veterans are hiding something.......they hae the losses and whom it was as I aksed for the names of the crews and the name of their B-26's and ID numbers. Absolutely nothing from them. the web-sites have nothing and I was told to check on two other sites dedicated to the b-26. Still nothing. Really hard for me to beleive that the B-26 units involved on this terrible mission have not gone into details with the MACR reports.

In fact because of the extremely high losses to the 9th AF the US 8th AF planned numerous heavy bomber missions on the Luftwaffe airifelds to pound them into dust the next date the 24th of December 44.

Erich do you know of any bombing raids on Stuttgart or the area around it in late 1944 and early 1945?

Der Adler:

As you know Erich has tons of info regarding the fierce battles between Reichsverteidigung units and the USAAF and RAF.

There is no specific agenda i guess. Erich continues to bring up interesting facts and we can proceed to exchange views and data as the info flows in.

Erich, the B-26 medium bomber had a crew of 7. So if we stick to the B-26 losses (42 bombers) reported by the 9th Air Force alone we have 294 pilots and airmen which failed to return to base that day (in this cases you can assume the majority of them were KIAs)

That is what the western allies fail to specify: that even if German losses were very high several of those days of mid-late 1944, theirs would usually be higher -breath taking in some cases- in terms of pilots and airmen.

294 pilots and crews (B-26s only, 9th Air Force alone) against 56 German pilots KIA means more than 5 times men lost for the USAAF on that particular day.

29 gruppen took part in the action of december 23? I have some in my notebook...do you have the gruppen numbers involved?


Erich, what amazes me is to know -for the first time- you have experienced suspicious behavior from USAAF historians yourself. If they hide something, what could that be Erich?

The answer should be easy: extremely high losses at the hands of the Luftwaffe.

December 29, 1944: this is the time when they claim the Luftwaffe had "nothing left to put up a fight but ill-trained kids". You know, in the mind of most people who are not deep into the issue, the view is that by late 1944, P-51 pilots carried pop-corn in their cockpits shooting down Germans at will.

Have you ever thought they want to keep the logic of the events officially registered in history?

Allowing new researchers and historias to get their noses on the actual records could disrupt the sense and the logic of what the world has been told.

Erich, if you have an employee at your company with a file of frauds committed in his former jobs, what makes you think he would not do it in your company?

If they are doing that with December 29, 1944 why not to do it with other battles? Why not November 26, 1944?

Okay well here is the thing Udet. The allies could replace there losses the Luftwaffe could not. Okay the 9th Airforce lost 100 aircraft. It sucks to put it this way but big deal. They could replace them and hit them again the next day. The luftwaffe on the other hand could not sustain losses of 50 or more a day for as long as the allies could.

I also in the sence of downing aircraft do not really see the relevence of 294 KIA as opposed to the number of aircraft lost. Bombers had larger crew members then fighters. So lets say 294 were B-17 crews. That would be approximatly 29 B-17's. The Luftwaffe lost 51 fighter crews. That would be 51 109's or 190's lost. Who really lost more? Who really could replace them? Who could come back and bomb tomorrow?

Adler yes I beleive there was a raid near or on Stuttgart in 44-45. Let me do some research and get back on this forum with that....

Udet this is not the first time I have had problems in finding out the truth through US contacts. In fact in 8 out of 10 times the Bobm group historians are very reluctant to shed news unless by chance I was a familie member of the unit. It did not matter whether I was pure American or of German/American ancestry which I am. the only way I have been able to truly break the bonds was to give some histporical background to the operation I was interested in which the bomb group played a role and what I was truly interested in; which some years ago was for personal data reasons and our web-pages, did the men open up there files and if not pointed me to another man of the bomb group that housed the historical-bg history records that could be accessed. On more than one occassion I have been given the note to contact the US archivs, which to me is total denial and that we cannot be bothered. Have gone through several firms with MACR copies as well as documentation houses which hold copies of bomb group mission reports which are the closest thing in textural form to the real operational mission itslef and these very important documents I do own copies of. The biggest problems though are their readability which in 2/3rds of the cases is absolutely terrible. Just not the copies of the originals but the originals themselves as the typesetters of the bomb groups typed in of the hand written forms of each of the bomb group captains, formulated and then put in biref form toegether to be presented to US hierarchy authorities. The stuff is barely readable. What is good about the reprot is for the living vets of the raids a person gets a true ID of how the German fighters attacked and what is fun and almost laughable is the colours/camocted by the bomb crews of the attacking German a/c.

Overall it has been told to me that the B-26 bomb groups did not have their mission reports saved and so there are none available. I do not beleive this is the case and the mission reports are in the hands of teh official US archiv's under special designation numbers like all the reports are. The problem though is where to look and what report numbers are they listed under.

I have to admit though I have made some outstanding friends with several of the US bomb group veterans, historians as what I have given them on the Luftwaffe has more than paid off for their own mission narratives in return.....

more to come

remember what I said about 26 November 44 the Freiburg listings ? They are claims not confirmed victories. I listed what has been confirmed with cross examination.

For JG 301 it was a chotic day and the air battle covered miles and miles. The P-51's attacked from above and behind I. and II./JG 301 Fw 190A-9's and the battles ensued over Misburg during the bombing and then west, with some of the staffeln able to carry out attacks on the bombers. The Schwere gruppe III./JG 301 was able to attack the bombers on at least one run through and formed up and presented to attack from the rear in small 3-4 a/c flights but then were set upon by P-51's. Again this went out west past Wünstorf where many JG 301 members lost their lives and over the hills to the south-west. After the mission the info was collected from the surviving pilots and the radioed in claims during the battle. this was turned in and then archived of which we at present have now. Upon further investigation of the areas reported by the pilots as to the actual shoot-downs, B-24's and the remains recovered were examined and then in truth, confirmation of the kill due to "area" was given out to the pilot whom submitted his mission report.

_____________________________________________________________

29 December 1944

I have only a brief note to the following. Terrible weather....

parts of JG's 6, 27 and 54 flew with 17 pilots KIA and 3 missing, and 26 a/c lost.

more digging.....

Cool thanks for the info Erich.

III./JG 54 with some 70 Fw 190D-9's took off with a section of JG 6 and Bf 109G's from IV./JG 27 to engage Allied fighters. The GErman ground control failed in attempts to visualize the existence and amount of US and RAF escort figthters and the Dora unit suffered terribly. In fact it was the last major operation of the gruppe. All 3 German units, JG 6 with Fw 190A-8's encountered RCAF Spits and Typhoons.

For the RAF-RCAF tallioes the mission reports conclude with 31 kills and the losses of 11 fighters in the 2nd TAF. German reports state overall a loss of 20 pilots of JG 6, 27 and 54. A tragic loss for the Dora unit as Kommandeur Bassi Weiss with 121 kills was shot down and KIA along with Stabschwarm pilot Oberlt. Bellaire......

JG 6's unit history is being written right now....

IV./JG 27 lost 5 pilots, 2 killed, 2 wounded and 1 bailed out. 2 109G-10's and 3 109G-14's, all in the area of Altstätte. IV./JG 27 claimed 0 RCAF fighters. This from the official IV./JG 27 history.

III./JG 54 lost 17 pilots-a/c with 1 other rolling off the runway. 5 a/c from 11th staffel, 2 from 12th staffel, 2 from the stab, 8 from 9ths taffel which was just about wiped out !

kills were 6 Spitfires and 2 Typhoons. 1 of the Spiots fell to the ace Bassi Weissat Gersten 4km NW of Lengerich (331sqnd. RAF, Captain Reader +) at 11.00 am

from III./JG 54 history

für Adler and those intersted

STUTTGART

I am going to start in July of 44 as this seems to be where Eagle wanted info....1944-45.

there was a 3 raid setup agasint ehc ity starting on July 24/25 1944 with some 614 RAF bombers involved. 17 lancasters and 4 halifaxes were lost.

The combination of these three raids casued the most serious damage to the city of the war to the central area. Most of the citys "old" buildings were destroyed. Second raid was the night of 25/26 July and the most successful in the terms of damage, with the night of 28/29th being the last of the three, incidently this night the German night fighter force got into the RAF stream and shot down 39 Lancasters during a full moon and clear skies. Totals for casualties for the 3 attacks was 1,171 people killed and 1,600 injured.

The city was attacked again on the night of 12/13 September 44 with 204 Lancs and 13 Mossies; 4 lancaters were lost
the north and western part of the city was plastered and a firestorm was started. Schloss Rosenstein was destroyed as well as the Prinzenbau. Another 1,110 plus people were killed.

Stuttgart again felt the RAF on the night of 13/14 October 1944 by Mossies. Have no evidence of damages.

October 19/20th the city was attacked by 565 Lancasters and 18 Mossies.
6 Lancasters were downed.
Central and eastern pasrt were hit including 4 churhes, the Bosch factory and a hospital. 376 killed and 872 injured.

November 5/6 1944, 65 Mossies to the city, none lost. No damge reports

November 21/22nd A multi pronged cities attack: 5 to be exact with a minor op to Stuttgart by Mossies-29 of them, no damge report at this time....

this finishes summer to 1944's end..............................................

Alright thanks alot! Where do you get this info. I have never been able to find info on bombing raids to Stuttgart.

a number of sources collected over the many many eyars. My first luv has always been the night air war from my interests of 1963 onward so I have amassed a bit of documentation.

chorleys work covers the units flown in his 1944 volume # 4 and 1945 is covered in volume # 5.

Martin Middlebrooks Bomber Command War diaries. Stuttgart Stadt Archiv's will give every one of the bombings and the fatalities and the districts runined by the bombings.

Bestätigte Nachtjagdabschüsse which gives every one of the kill-claims by the Nachtjagd. A much more indepth book is coming out by Dr. Theo Boiten for the war which will include many first person accts that are not listed at all in the Bundes archiv in Berlin, Aachen nor Freiburg

Der Adler:

I get your point very well. Also I share a similar view on the matter: losses had a more signficant impact in the ranks of the Luftwaffe by late 1944. No one will deny this.

That the USAAF could replace losses easier than the Luftwaffe is true. However I believe the issue has gone overboard. Again, the USAAF had a superior capability to replace losses but saying it was "easy" is misleading.

Losses for the USAAF were very very high fighting the Luftwaffe. The USAAF was not the armed branch of a country like the soviet union where the lives of their soldiers meant virtually nothing. Losses of course had a negative effect on USAAF personnel.

Try to imagine the mood at the USAAF bases the night of December 29, 1944 knowing 294 B-26 men (9th Air Force alone, add those KIA from lost fighters and bombers from the 8th) did not return from the mission.

Thanks for the response Erich. Great information. From time to time i continue to learn the allies are frequent liars and that they can conceal and manipulate the actual performance of their air forces and that of the Luftwaffe in such a fashion that of course serves their interest.



Erich, since the matter was one of your first loves, do you think it is about time to tell me what you know about the nachtjager experte Heinrich Prinz zu Zayn Wittgenstein?

I was shown a photo of him: absolute class and ellegance (quite actually a very common issue detected on hundreds of photos of German pilots my PC has stored over the last 4 or 5 years).

He was involved in the defence of the Reich -on topic-.

Since my knowledge on the NJG is not any deep, he is kind of a "new" character to me but heard he was a superb pilot. You told me he was a totally strict commander and that was about it.

P.S. Was Prinz one of his names?

the Prince is actually one of the few NF aces that I have relative little info on. I know several NJG 3 vets that served under him and he was always dressed the best way possible. he expected the same of his crew in both the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88C. to act and to serve in accordance with tradition is the highest honour or so he felt. A very competent pilot whom would take close in chances to assure a victory. So stirrct was he for stelath reasons as he trusted really no-one he refused to allow cameras on "his" airfield. off the field it was another story....

Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

final rank : Major

83 kills, with 23 of them in the East. 320 missions, some 150 of these as a bomber pilot.

Received the Ritterkreuz with Swords posthum after he was killed in combat, January 23, 1944. Presented the EL to his RK on August 31, 1943 as a Hauptmann.

Flew 150 missions as a bomber pilot while in KG 51 over France, England and in Russia. In November of 1941 he became Stafflekapitän of 9./NJG 2. After his 22nd vicotry he was presented the RK. On the 12th of January 1942 he became Kommanduer of IV./NJG 5. End of 1942 he had 24 kills to his credit in 50 missions. For a short time he was in I./NJG 100 in the East and shot down a further 18 soviet a/c. 15 of August 1943 he became Kommandeur of II./NJG 3. After 54 kills he received the EL to his RK. December 1, 1943 he is now in NJG 2 flying the Ju 88C model, and on 1-1-44 he scored his 67th kill, on the 2nd of January he added another 6 RAF bombers to his socre. On the night of the 20/21st of the month he added another 3 kills.
January 21/22, 1944 the Prinz and his 3 man crew attacked and shot down 5 RAF bombers, the last one the Prinz got in to close and the rear-tail gunner let flyin with his .303's hitting the Junkers motors, the Prinz ordered the two other crewmen to bail out and the Prinz wendt down with his Ju 88C-6 coded R4+XM. Some historians have claimed that he was shot down by a Mossie intruder but the fire was coming into the nose-cockpit and the forward part of the engines according to the surviving crew members, Fw. Ostheimer and Uffz. Matzuleit.

There is also a book written up on the man and his exploits. Quite a character from the vets I hae interviewed.

♪

Udet said:

Der Adler:

I get your point very well. Also I share a similar view on the matter: losses had a more signficant impact in the ranks of the Luftwaffe by late 1944. No one will deny this.

That the USAAF could replace losses easier than the Luftwaffe is true. However I believe the issue has gone overboard. Again, the USAAF had a superior capability to replace losses but saying it was "easy" is misleading.

Losses for the USAAF were very very high fighting the Luftwaffe. The USAAF was not the armed branch of a country like the soviet union where the lives of their soldiers meant virtually nothing. Losses of course had a negative effect on USAAF personnel.

Try to imagine the mood at the USAAF bases the night of December 29, 1944 knowing 294 B-26 men (9th Air Force alone, add those KIA from lost fighters and bombers from the 8th) did not return from the mission.

Click to expand...

I agree with you on what you are saying here. I just think that basing the overall effect of the raid should place more emphasis on the amount of aircraft lost rather then the crews killed. 51 Luftwaffe pilots shot down and killed was more damaging to the Luftwaffe then 29 bombers shot down. Either way though you are correct 294 crew members not coming home would have a negative affect on the USAAF also.

mit Elleganz...

The pictures did almost always seem to have a royal or knightly touch to them.

handsome bloke bit a bit strange. A perfectionist to the extreme....

28/29 january 1945 Stuttgart gets hit by 316 lancs, 258 Hali's and 28 Mossies. 6 lancs, 4 halis and 1 Mossie are shot down.

The raid was split into two sections. The railway centre of Kornwestheim was hit just to the north of Stuttgart, and the NW of subburb of Zuffenhausen where it was hoped the aero-engine factory of Hirth. Skies were cloud scattered for both the attacks casuing the bombing to seperate. Interesting to note that the bombing seemed to have dispersed to outward towns such as Weilimdorf and off target towards decoy fire sites.

123 killed in Stuttgart alone. the last major raid on the city as some 53 major raids had occurred during the war mostly by RAF a/c. A total of 4,562 people died in these raids plus 750 POW's.

more to come....

Phenominal info erich...