Replace Me-109 with Me-155?

Changes necessary would have to remain minimal: the DB 628 or DB 603

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If Germany had chosen to mass produce the DB603 engine early and in greater numbers then the entire issue is moot. Dr. Tank would get his wish to mass produce the Fw-190C.

Civettone said:

Of course it's not! The BV 155 was a "very high altitude" fighter. Nothing left in common with the Me 155 carrier version.

Kris

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I agreed the earlier picture of the Bf109G with larger wings grafted on it is probably a better representation however just relaying what was printed in the Monogram

davebender said:

If Germany had chosen to mass produce the DB603 engine early and in greater numbers then the entire issue is moot. Dr. Tank would get his wish to mass produce the Fw-190C.

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That is all wishfull thinking. The DB 603 had problems until 1944. Of course we could say that they had to be finished sooner but this is all pretty easy in hindsight. Maybe it would have meant giving up on fixing the low ata for the DB 605 thereby sealing the fate of the Bf 109 with no clear successor.
As to what Tank was doing ... it took him over a year to simply re-engine a fighter and get it ready for production. The Fw 190C could indeed have entered production as soon as 1943 (if the engine permitted).
But I have had some discussions before as to why he was not allowed the DB 603 and I think a lot is made up post-war. The only reason I see is that the DB 603 was reserved for the Me 209, Me 410, Do 217M/N and that rotten He 219. So once again it is the Me 209 which blocks everything: the Me 155 and now the Fw 190C.

Kris

Hi,

That is all wishfull thinking. The DB 603 had problems until 1944

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Which problems, other than he wasn`t produced in numbers?
He had little problems with the running time in combat, 60 hours to 100 hours but not serios problems and these problems were solved in steps

Of course we could say that they had to be finished sooner but this is all pretty easy in hindsight. Maybe it would have meant giving up on fixing the low ata for the DB 605 thereby sealing the fate of the Bf 109 with no clear successor.

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I don't understand that. The DB 603 was from 1936! The RLM wasn't realy interested until 1941.
The change from Jumo 222 to DB 603 at the Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark was 24.12.1941.
For the persons who understand german a link:
Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark ? Wikipedia. Sorry there is no english wiki article with all informations.
At the Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark the DB 603 was sabotaged from the early junkers senior management that was in the factory from 1937.The sabotage was until 1943 and the DB management didn't get it.
The whole management was replaced at 5.5.1943 with Dr. Georg Meindl fom the Steyr-Werke.

For the whole understanding, the Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark was the main engine factory for the DB 603.

So I don't understand the the comment from above. When you do the math, there were 4-5 years of development time, that were lost with no interest from the RLM and 1 and a half year with home made production troubles. If Jeschonnek and Kesselring hadn't want this fiction Bomber B programm, with a total new engine (Jumo 222) but rather a normal evolution development (the DB 603 is very equal to the DB 601)
then with no doubt the DB 603 could be realy mass production ready at 1941 with a completly other output in numbers.
The DB 605 is a whole other issue. And the production and engineering wasn't in conflict with the DB 603.

As to what Tank was doing ... it took him over a year to simply re-engine a fighter and get it ready for production. The Fw 190C could indeed have entered production as soon as 1943 (if the engine permitted).

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Where do you have this information? The FW 190C with the TK 11 Turbolader, had serious problems with the turbolader. The TK 11 was to heavy in weight because the german hadn't enough wolfram and molybdänerz to built a smaller Turbolader for massproduction. And the normal C without Turbolader hadn't enough power to change the production.
Not until the FW 190 D with Jumo 213A and the solved problems of the ignition with the forced vibrations of the earlier Jumo 213A.
The germans hadn't a design problem the whole war, they had home made engine problems because of the wrong decisions of Jeschonnek and Kesselring with the bomber b. A normal engine advertisement at 1937/38 for normal evolution engines with more horsepower and the DB 603 and Jumo 213 could be massproduction ready a whole decade earlier than happened.

But I have had some discussions before as to why he was not allowed the DB 603 and I think a lot is made up post-war.

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No it all happened before the war!

I agree. Besides an inadequate fuel supply, the delay in DB603 engine development and mass production was probably the single biggest mistake made by RLM.

However that's all water under bridge. Without adequate numbers of DB603 and/or Jumo 213 engines the Fw-190C and Me-209 cannot be mass produced. The Me-109 series must soldier on until at least 1945. Building the Me-155 offers an option besides the historical Me-109G6.

I agree. Besides an inadequate fuel supply, the delay in DB603 engine development and mass production was probably the single biggest mistake made by RLM.

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I agree.

This,the death of Wever and the decision for the bomber b were the drastic events of the LW.

It's ironic that the final (almost produced) version of the Jumo213 engine had as much hp as the original (almost produced) version of the Jumo222 engine. With a bit of hindsight the Ju-288 bomber could have been designed for a pair of the 2,500 hp Jumo211J engines. Alternately I suspect the Do-217 would have matured into a relatively powerful level bomber equipped with DB603 engines which start at 1,750 hp and produce over 2,000 hp when fully developed.

As to what Tank was doing ... it took him over a year to simply re-engine a fighter and get it ready for production. The Fw 190C could indeed have entered production as soon as 1943 (if the engine permitted).

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Where do you have this information? The FW 190C with the TK 11 Turbolader, had serious problems with the turbolader.

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There was more than just the V18/U1.

The V13, V15, V16, V18, V20/U1, V21/U1, V30, V31, V32/U1, V33/U1 all used the DB603 engine.

From my sources Prototype of the FW 190C

V17, V18, V19, V29, V30, V31, V32, V33.

V18, V29, V30, V32 and V33 later as Prototys for the Ta 152H.

Civettone said:

That is all wishfull thinking. The DB 603 had problems until 1944. Of course we could say that they had to be finished sooner but this is all pretty easy in hindsight. Maybe it would have meant giving up on fixing the low ata for the DB 605 thereby sealing the fate of the Bf 109 with no clear successor.
As to what Tank was doing ... it took him over a year to simply re-engine a fighter and get it ready for production. The Fw 190C could indeed have entered production as soon as 1943 (if the engine permitted).
But I have had some discussions before as to why he was not allowed the DB 603 and I think a lot is made up post-war. The only reason I see is that the DB 603 was reserved for the Me 209, Me 410, Do 217M/N and that rotten He 219. So once again it is the Me 209 which blocks everything: the Me 155 and now the Fw 190C.

Kris

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I will have to check my sources again, but the Fw for the DB603 was basically ready by 1942. I think the most plausible answer why Tank didn't build the Fw 190 C is simply that the RLM had no real interest in it. So yeah it was simply reserved for programs that were theoretically more advanced in the design cycle. Which was a pretty dumb decision: Once it became clear the Me 209 was disappointing the Fw 190 C should've been put into production.

And yeah MTBO for the DB603 was bad until late '43 at least (iirc around 50 hours), but then that didn't stop Jumo 004 production.

davebender said:

It's ironic that the final (almost produced) version of the Jumo213 engine had as much hp as the original (almost produced) version of the Jumo222 engine. With a bit of hindsight the Ju-288 bomber could have been designed for a pair of the 2,500 hp Jumo211J engines. Alternately I suspect the Do-217 would have matured into a relatively powerful level bomber equipped with DB603 engines which start at 1,750 hp and produce over 2,000 hp when fully developed.

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A large part of the problem was the different time lines and development of the engines. This relates to the development of fuel and mechanical components like bearing and rings.
In 1937 when development of the Ju 222 and the Db 603 are starting they are 44-46 liter engines. As is the air cooled P&W R-2800. Liquid cooled engines can usually make more power per liter than air cooled engines.
In 1937 87 octane fuel was good stuff. Some planes (including the FW 200) were actually set up with dual fuel systems to use 87 octane for take off and 80 octane for cruising. While everybody KNEW that higher octane fuels were coming, nobody knew exactly when. At the time Howard Hughes set the record with 100 octane it was more laboratory experiment than a commercially available fuel, costing around $4.00 a gallon at the time.
100octane wasn't available to American air racers in the Thompson races until the sumer of 1939.
This limited the developers of engines. If they were limited by the available fuel (or what they thought would be available in a few years) they had to make certain choices. They were limited in the amount of boost and compression that could be used which left them with engine displacement and RPM as the only avenues to make more powerful engines. Engine displacement also had certain choices, 12, 12 or 18 large cylinders or 24 or more small cylinders. Small cylinders allow for better cooling and breathing. The smaller reciprocating parts also allow for higher RPM. But more cylinders means more cost and more weight. It also may mean more friction loss.
High RPM had it's own difficulties. Stress on bearings and crankshafts went up the square of the speed.
Friction losses also went up with the square of the speed so that for the same output a high RPM engine had to make more gross power (burn more fuel) than a low RPM engine.
Many engine programs were made superfluous when improvements in fuel allowed older smaller, engines to make more power without the cost and weight of "newer" engines that were supposed to replace them.

Remember that when the Jumo 222 was first proposed the DB 601 had just gone into production at around 1100hp. The 601 E was several years in the future and the DB 605 was even further off.

As far as the JU 213 goes it was first run in 1940, about a year later than the Jumo 222 and at lower power. It wasn't ready for production or service use until 1943 which is way too late for the Ju 288 program. This 1943 version was no where near 2500hp.

The Jumo 213J may have had some problems as a bomber engine. With one of the higher RPMs used by a large aircraft engine (and by far the highest piston speed) it may have had engine life problems. While short engine life may be acceptable in an interceptor engine where each flight may be on the order of 2 hours it may be less acceptable for a bomber engine when each flight may be on the order of 6-8hours.

late war engines may also have benefited in improvements in bearings and/or lubrication technology.

@ Shortround6

Mostly I agree with you.

But

Remember that when the Jumo 222 was first proposed the DB 601 had just gone into production at around 1100hp. The 601 E was several years in the future and the DB 605 was even further off.

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The Jumo 222 is a completly other engine design as all other german engines.
There were no single experiences with such an engine in production, mass production etc.

The DB 603 is very equal to the DB 601 from design and materials to manufactor. A well developped DB 603 (start time 1937) is to my opinion the better choice. Less development time, less costs, easier for mass production because you could use many experience from the DB 601.
The DB 601 starts production end of november 1937, the DB 601 E starts mass production end of 1941.
I think a realistic scenario for a well developped DB 603 (start time 1937) is mass production at 1941 with 1500 hp and someting like 2000hp at 1944. But with a whole other output in numbers.

That's not quite right. RLM provided funding for DB603 engine development in 1936 and then cancelled funding during 1937. Maintain full funding for the DB603 engine and I'd hazard a guess it would be ready for mass production at least a year early.

Fw-190 development began during the fall of 1937. If the DB603 engine had not just been cancelled the Fw-190 could have been designed for the DB603 engine right from the beginning. The Fw-190C and it's DB603 engine could both have been in mass production during 1941. Even if early DB603 engines have a service life of only 50 hours that's still twice as good as early BMW801 radial engines.

The point is the DB603 was in a different performance and application class than the Jumo 222. At least at the time it was canceled. The 50 hours MTBO was a 1943 DB 603 not an early one.

Sure in hindsight the DB603 if ready by 1941 could likely make the BMW801 unnecessary, but at the time it was a logical choice: BMW had engineering and manufacturing capacity and it was becoming clear that the air cooled radials were not dead. better to have at least some money on that horse.

Sometimes it is better the bird in the hand than a pigeon on the roof.

The DB 601->DB605->DB 603 and Jumo 211->213 are normal steps, the Jumo 222 is a completly other engine....

It makes me think could the 603q and 603n been made sooner.

Here is the db628

That's true when war threatens as was the case during 1934 to 1939. It looks like France and Russia were exploring a joint invasion of Central Europe but halted preparations when Poland refused to be absorbed into the Soviet Union. Under these circumstances Germany needs an air force ASAP, not 10 years down the road.

1934.
Soviet Union begins a massive increase in military spending.

2 May 1935.
Franco-Russian military alliance.

16 May 1935.
Russo-Czechoslovak military alliance.

7 Sep 1936.
The Marxist Popular Front government of France approves an additional 14 billion francs for the French military, to be spent by 1940. ¼th of this money was for army mechanized forces (i.e. increasing offensive capability).

@ davebender

I agree!

Without Wevers death and Wimmers replacement with Udet and a clear conception the LW could be very efficient!

Without the Bomber B, a normal advertisement of an engine with more horsepower at 1937, a normal project P 1041 of a strategic bomber without diving and the the FW 187 instead of the Me 110 would be all "you" need!
The plans of the He 177/277 with 4 "normal" engines exist since 1937, with an built wood modell. So I think with normal development this bird could be production ready at 1941.

That would be "one hell" of an efficient LW at 1941/1942

Fighter

Bf 109E-Bf 109F perhaps G
Fw 190A- FW 190C- Ta 152H (later than 1942)
FW 187

Nightfighter
FW 187 and Ju 88 perhaps Bf 110

Fighterbomber
FW 190A

Divebomber
Ju 87

Destroyer
FW 187/Ju 88

Mediumbomber
Ju 88

Torpedobomber/Long range scout over the See
Ju 88/Ju 290/He 177/277 with 4 normal engines at 1941

Strategicbomber
He 177/277 with 4 normal engines at 1941

Transporter
Ju 52/Ju 290

Scout
Fw 187

davebender said:

That's not quite right. RLM provided funding for DB603 engine development in 1936 and then cancelled funding during 1937. Maintain full funding for the DB603 engine and I'd hazard a guess it would be ready for mass production at least a year early.

Fw-190 development began during the fall of 1937. If the DB603 engine had not just been cancelled the Fw-190 could have been designed for the DB603 engine right from the beginning. The Fw-190C and it's DB603 engine could both have been in mass production during 1941. Even if early DB603 engines have a service life of only 50 hours that's still twice as good as early BMW801 radial engines.

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I was being approximate in the time line. It took 4-6 years to bring an engine from drawing board to production.
You also have to consider what happens if you do get your wish and and work on the DB603 continues in 1937. All those engineers and draftsmen At DB that were working on the 603 didn't take a year long Holiday on the Baltic coast and ski trips. I would hazard a guess that they worked on the later versions of the DB 601 and perhaps learned things that could be applied to the 603 when it was taken up again. You also have the supercharger situation. You can't take the performance of an engine from 1943 and claim that if development hadn't been interrupted in 1937 the same performance could have been had in 1941 or early 42. A lot was learned about superchargers in 1940-41-42 and on. the superchargers of 1943 were not the same as the superchargers of 1939-40.
Wright had a similar problem. They had worked on the R-3350 in the mid to late 30s but put it aside to work on the R-2600 (bring it to production) and work on the R-2160. When they dusted off the prints for the R-3350 and started work again they found that the sate of the art had changed so much in just a few years that they were almost starting from scratch. A 1941 DB603 might be a far cry from a 1943 DB603.

In those 4-6 years a lot can (and did) happen. Fuel availability can change, Rival manufacturers can get ahead due to luck or better capacity. Many manufacturers were stretching the boundaries of what was possible, read about the problems P&W had with vibration on the R-2800 during development.

Putting engines with an overhaul life of 50 hours into combat planes is a sign of desperation. Especially in 1941-43. Overhaul life is not a minimum life guarantee. It is the time at which ,by manufacturers recommendation, an engine should be pulled from service EVEN IF it is showing no sign of trouble. Some engines did go longer, other engines of the same make and model never made it close to the overhaul life.
Some air cooled engines had 2 or 3 cylinders replaced without being torn down for an overhaul.
It is one thing to use an interceptor that might get 30-40 flights out of a 50 hour engine, you don't see combat on every flight. It is quite another thing to build a bomber fleet using engines that need replacement/overhaul ever 8-12 flights.