Replace Me-109 with Me-155?

[davebender]

Blohm Voss BV 155 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During 1942 Messerschmitt designed the Me-155 for use on German aircraft carriers. Supposedly the design was complete by September 1942, just in time to be cancelled along with the German CV program.
1 x 1,475 hp DB605 engine.
Wide track landing gear.
3 x MG151/20 cannon. Prop shaft plus 1 in each wing.
403 mph estimated max speed.

Messerschmitt Me 209-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During 1943 Messerschmitt designed the Me-209 II as a replacement for the Me-109 series. This aircraft was powered by a DB603 engine. The shortage of DB603 engines was probably the major factor why the Me-209 II did not superceed the Me-109.

Why didn't the Luftwaffe select the Me-155 as a replacement for the aging Me-109 series starting in 1943? There were plenty of DB605 engines available.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

It looks like in February of 1943 they were looking at the Fiat G55 as a replacement for the 109.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/g55/G55his.htm#his3




Transcript from the German official BA-MA archives courtesy of Civettone:



AWM 54 423/4/103 Part 63, Report of a Conference held by Reichsmarschall Goering on 22 February 1943


Milch: ... Perhaps Petersen can inform us on this question and also about the comparison flights in Italy.

Petersen: ... There will be a further report about comparison flights with all the Italian types ... Against this, the Italian fighter is equal to the German fighter, especially as regards rate of climb. They are also superior in armament. The Fiat 55 aircraft has four cannon and a performance similar to that of the German aircraft, although powered by an engine that
is a hundred horsepower less.

Peltz: Were they series or experimental aircraft?

Petersen: There is an experimental series of ten aircraft, but these trials concerned new aircraft that had been 'titivated up'.

Goering: I'm glad that the Italians at long last have produced a respectable fighter. And I can only say; let them build them to capacity.

Milch: We also should do something in that sphere. It is indeed a disgrace to our own industry.

Goering: The Italians have never built inferior aircraft and have always been competent in the construction of aircraft and engines. I remember the Fiat and Alfa. They have also held the world speed record. The ability of the Italian aircraft industry has always been of the best. They are unable to mass produce however, and there we must help them. We can consider ourselves lucky, if they have produced a good fighter aircraft. It's one in the eye for our own people anyway.

Petersen: We must attend to this at once. The airframe of the Fiat G 55 can accommodate the DB 603 engine, while the Me 109 is unable to do so any longer. The G 55 with the DB 603 would be an ideal fighter aircraft.

Galland: From our experience the Italians have always forgotten something in their fighter aircraft, either the armour or guns.

Goering: It's to be hoped however that for the purposes of these comparison flights, they've been informed about this, otherwise it's a waste of time.

Petersen: The fighter specialist has flown the aircraft. With the exception of the radio it carried complete equipment, and fuel for one and a half hours, whereas we carried fuel for only one hour. We can't ignore the fact that the Italian aircraft has a performance equal to that of our latest types.

Milch: Then please obtain three Italian aircraft at once, and fly them here, in Rechlin. I would have the DB 603 installed in these aircraft that we have been discussing this morning. It would mean a considerable advance towards the Me 209. I can't imagine the FW 190 with the BMW 801 engine as it is today being sufficient for the next two and half years. [sic!] Especially as we don't know what the English and the Americans are building.

...

Goering: I'm also in favour of the proposal. However I consider it more than likely that the English will effect an improvement with their own types. I would like to ask what is our best means of improving our fighters other than the jet propulsion business?
Milch: The Me 209 and especially its engine. ...

...

Goering: If the Italian aircraft is good, then we won't deny the fact, and we'll mass produce them here. We don't want any false pride.

Milch: Thereby we could advance a year.

Galland: And it would also do our designers good.

Goering: On top of that perhaps we could include the Italian pilots as well, in our complete programme. Anyway I'm very pleased to hear this about the Italians.

 

[davebender]

That won't work for the same reason the Me-209 II won't work. There weren't enough DB603 and Jumo213 engines. If the Me-109 is to be superceded with something else the replacement aircraft must be powered by the DB605 engine.

 

[Waynos]

Why didn't the Luftwaffe select the Me-155 as a replacement for the aging Me-109 series starting in 1943? There were plenty of DB605 engines available.

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter in a similar fashion to the Westland Welkin, rather than a potential 109 replacement?

 

[Tzaw1]

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter in a similar fashion to the Westland Welkin, rather than a potential 109 replacement?

This plane was the chameleon. Had first to be deck fighter for the "Graf Zeppelin", later speed fighter-bomber. To the end - the high altitude fighter.

 

[vikingBerserker]

It looks the it really did not fly until late 1944. ARBA makes a 1/48 model of it and it looks pretty nice.

 

[davebender]

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter

The Bv-155 had a different fuselage, different wing, different engine and was designed by a shipyard rather then by Messerschmitt. To my way of thinking that is an entirely different aircraft.

I am referring to the CV fighter aircraft designed by Messerschmitt during 1942.

 

[Waynos]

I had thought they were the same project, the work being transferred from Messerschmitt to BV, who then 'made alterations'.

I take the earlier point about it having several different iterations though.

Edit; just had a quick look in my book and I see there was the 'A' model shipboard fighter and 'B' model High alititude fighter, the latter being transferred to BV in August 1943.

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

 

[Colin1]

I thought the Me155 did replace the Bf109 - the T
I understand it was scheduled for the Graf Zeppelin until they canned the project. The German High Command then got a taste for the impact carriers could have and re-opened it.
They didn't reopen the Bf109T program though. I think the T was based on the E and by 1942 and onwards that would have been rather soundly outclassed. Around 60 planes were de-navalised and redeployed as land-based fighters. I think most of them ended up in Norway.

 

[Colin1]

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

There's this plan-form shot of the A, I'll see what else I can dig up

 

[Waynos]

I have the Me 155B colin, but thanks anyway for taking the trouble. I was wondering if/how the Me 155A was different in detail.

 

[A4K]

I had thought they were the same project, the work being transferred from Messerschmitt to BV, who then 'made alterations'.

From all I've read on them, you're right. The main stumbling block for Messerschmitt was the cooling arrangement of the engine and improvement of the supercharger. They were more or less ordered to concentrate on Me 262 production instead in the end, the design being transferred to Blohm und Voss, who, after subsequent design changes, mananged to smooth out most, if not all, of the problems...

As a side note, ever noticed how there were no official Bf 109I and J? What would have been the 109J was the Bf 109 G-6 airframes (ie, aircraft minus engines) exported to Spain. 'Official' name for these in Germany was Bf 109G-6a (a: 'Ausland'/ foreign), in Spain, after fitting with Merlins, Hispano Ha-112.
My personal theory on the lack of a Bf 109I is that the designation was deliberately skipped to avoid confusion with the Messerschmitt P.1091 project, which was to become the Me 155/ BV 155...

 

[davebender]

main stumbling block for Messerschmitt was the cooling arrangement of the engine and improvement of the supercharger.

Do you have any additional details?

The Me-155 used the same engine as the Me-109G. Why didn't they use the same supercharger and cooling system?

 

[Auravir]

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

I found a few diagrams of the me 155a and b

Me 155 A

Me 155 A with bomb

Me 155 B-1

Me 155 B-1a

 

[davebender]

I'm surprised they didn't install a bubble canopy. But I suppose that would involve serious fuselage modification. Perhaps the Erla Haube would be good enough.

 

[Waynos]

Thank you for that. Something that isn't clear from the side views, was the Span longer on the B or were they the same in those initial versions? I have seen the freakish wing of the Bv 155, so I'm thinking of when Messerschmitt were still in charge.

 

[A4K]

Do you have any additional details?

The Me-155 used the same engine as the Me-109G. Why didn't they use the same supercharger and cooling system?

She was designed as an Extremer Höhenjaeger (extreme high altitude fighter), so the arrangement had to be revised for performance at those heights. (The Bv 155 V1 was test flown at 55,610 ft (16, 950 m)...).
An idea of the complexity of the arrangement: (from 'German Aircraft Interiors 1935-1945 Vol.1', by Kenneth A. Merrick)

...due to other commitments , Prof. Messerschmitt and his staff had done very little work on the project when it was transferred to the firm of Blohm und Voss, under the able leadership of Dr. Richard Vogt.

Dr. Vogt and his team quickly discovered that the original Messerschmitt design simply wouldn't work, and immediately set about to completely redesign the fighter while making an effort to retain as much of the original Messerschmitt concept as feasible. A number of powerplants were considered, but in the end, the Daimler Benz DB 603E was selected to be used in conjunction with the Heinkel-Hirth TKL 15 turbo supercharger. When used in this combination, the designation of the engine was amended to DB 603 U. The TKL 15 and DB 603 U were mutually dependent, but the latter could operate without the former engaged. When both components were functioning together, outside air was ducted through a ventrally-mounted intake, where it reached the eye of the TKL 15 turbo supercharger. There it was forced under pressure from the turbo's volute, to the intercooler located immediately above. From the intercooler, the compressed and cooled air was fed along a semi-enclosed duct mounted on the outside of the fueslage to the port side entry of the engine-driven, single stage supercharger. Air from the engine-driven supercharger was first fed into the aftercooler and then into the intake manifold located between the cylinder blocks of the inverted V-type engine. Hot exhaust gases would leave the engine via manifolds which were connected to two 5.5 inch (140 mm) exhaust pipes. The exhaust travelled to the rear via the two semi-enclosed exhaust pipes mounted on both sides of the fueslage running to the turbine compartment. both the starboard and port exhaust pipes forked at the turbine compartment, one branch on each side leading to the turbine, while the other branches, which had waste-gate valves, lead to the exhaust duct below the rear fueslage. The waste-gate valves regulated the quantity of gas passing to the turbine, thereby controlling it's speed. The TKL 15 was mounted with it's axis in the direction of flight.
The hot gases from the inboard forks lead directly to the collecting chamber through to a row of fixed blades and one row of moving turbine blades to the exit duct below rear fueslage. The turbine blades were holllow and cooled by air drawn in from the air entry duct below below the fueslage through a seperate pipe to the centre of the turbine rotor, passing outward through the blades to escape from their tips into the exhaust exit duct.

...

If anyone wants photos and diagrams of the Bv 155 functioning components from that book, drop us your address in a PM (I don't have access to a scanner!)

Evan

 

[davebender]

I am referring to the CV fighter aircraft designed by Messerschmitt during 1942. Not the high altitude aircraft designed by Blohm Voss from August 1943 onward.

 

[Burmese Bandit]

Again and again the question comes up: why was not the 109 replaced with something better? And the answer is something that cannot be seen in the plane's performance statistics - Willi Messerschitt designed the 109 from the beginning as a production friendly aircraft. With a production time of 5000 man hours and a cost far cheaper than any other aircraft, it was, warts and all, simply the best bargain for the GAF from 1935-45.

What should have been done for the 109 is, perhaps, an armament package which I have described in my thread 'could you have designed a better aircraft' thread.

Reverse the gun philosophy. Put one 20 mm in the cowl on top, and have another 20 mm in the bottom as a belly pack. Since there is only one gun on top, even if it is much bigger than the historical 13 mm, it will blend smoothly into the airframe and not cause vision impairing bulges on each sice.

To get around the problem of the lower 20 mm interfering with the oil cooler, have the engine come with a raidial cowl integrated at the engine factory similar to the FW 190 D. Hve both engine and oil cooling integrated in that cowl. Have the lower 20 mm blend smoothly into the lower engine hatch and cowl lower lip with a fairing. Have it swing together with the lower engine hatch sideways so that the lower gun will not interfere at all with access to the engine.

Now, for the engine mounted gun, put two MG 13 Zwilling mounted on top of each other so that four 13 mm barrels are firing through the propeller boss.

In the space in the wings vacated by the deletion of the wing radiators, put two 30 gal blister tanks, with a smooth and pointed rear end.

Result:

Minimal change to the cheap 109 airframe.
DOUBLE the firepower of the historical 109 G.
60 gallons more fuel.

 

[A4K]

I am referring to the CV fighter aircraft designed by Messerschmitt during 1942. Not the high altitude aircraft designed by Blohm Voss from August 1943 onward.

Damn...took a while to type that lot out!

B.B, I reckon the Bf 109 WAS replaced where possible with something better - THE FW 190!!!