Request on the Italian captured Hawker Hurricane

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by PATI, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. PATI

    PATI New Member

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    Hi to all,

    This is my first post here and oddly enough I will start with a request concerning pics and documentation on the Regia Aeronautica captured Zmaj built Yugoslav Hurricane.

    The aircraft in question (or two of them) was (were) apparently captured in the Nikshiq airfiled in Monte Negro by the invading Italian forces in April 1941.

    One such machine got Italian markings and was subsequently flown to Tirana (Albania) proceeding then to Rome where it was repainted in typical Italian camouflage of three mottled colors. In the flying center of Guidonia the aircraft was exptensively used until it was damaged during landing in 1943.

    Does anybody in the forum has pics or camo schemes of such aircraft ?
     
  2. antoni

    antoni Banned

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    Cannot find a photo so cannot vouch for the veracity of this profile.
     

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  3. PATI

    PATI New Member

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    Many thanks Antoni,

    I believe the profile is correct in most elements such as black spinner, yellow cowling, white fuselage band and Savoia cross. On the other site the camo pattern and its colors seems to be not quite convincing but this is a matter of interpretation for the artist. I will try to put here the few pictures I managed to find of theis a.c. so we can evaluate it better.
     
  4. PATI

    PATI New Member

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    Here comes the first showing the a.c. during an inspection from Musolini.
     

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  5. PATI

    PATI New Member

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    Here comes also a skin I found in the net for the aircraft in question.
     

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  6. Hien Driver

    Hien Driver New Member

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    Thank you all for above information on Italian Hurricane, most interesting!!,as I am building sutch one at the moment.
    Does anyone have anything on Nakajima Ki62 Ki63 projects, drawings or anything!!:D
     
  7. f100 Brasil

    f100 Brasil New Member

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    What color used in inferior surfaces this plane??
     
  8. Startiger

    Startiger New Member

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    Light grey seems correct (namely 'Grigio Mimetico, quite close to FS36293)
     
  9. kgambit

    kgambit Active Member

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    #9 kgambit, Oct 31, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
    Standard Italian Interior color was usually Verde Anti Corrosion (Anti-Corrosion Green) FS 34272 or FS 34558 (life color UA116). The latter is a much brighter shade of green than the former.

    On the Reggiane fighters, the interior color was a bit more greyish, FS 34227 while other planes used a slightly more greenish color - FS 34230.

    Of course there are exceptions to these.

    During 1941 a directive was issued which took full effect in 1942 that all new and refurbished aircraft were supposed to have their internals painted in Grigio Azzurro Chiarro 1. (life color UA 113; Polly scale 505290 - Italian Light Blue grey; Model master acryl 4579). This color was likely applied OVER the anti corrosion green as well.

    Since this is likely considered a refurbished aircraft, I would tend to go with the Grigio Azzurro Chiarro 1 unless you have specific information otherwise.

    Grigio Mimetico (FS 36231) was usually used on the underside (lower wings and fuselage), although some planes were left in Natural Aluminum (such as the SM 82 Marsupiale).

    Note: Internal color information from the Stormo Color guide.

    Edit. Blast - misread f100brasil's post. Thought he was asking for INTERIOR color, not INFERIOR which is the underside.
     
  10. Startiger

    Startiger New Member

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    Interior color: I believe the A/C was not repainted inside, hence interior color could be standard British grey-green
    Undersurface: the "Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1" (Light Blue Grey - close to FS 36307) kgambit cites was part of a color chart issued in 1942, alongside "Verde Oliva Scuro 2" (Dk Olive Green - close to FS 34052) and "Nocciola Chiaro 4" (Light Hazelnut - very close to FS30219). I believe this issue is not correct because this chart involved new camouflage scheme (e.g solid Verde Oliva Scuro 2 uppersurfaces and Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 undersurfaces). The scheme used for the Hurricane is an older design, when diffent colors where used.

    Color reference from "Colori e schemi mimetici della Regia Aeronautica 1935-43", CMPR Ravenna, st issued in 1977 and re-issued in 1994 (both editions where checked)
     
  11. kgambit

    kgambit Active Member

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    #11 kgambit, Oct 31, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
    As for repainting the interior, there is no evidence to support whether the cockpit was or was not repainted so I think it's fair to assume that EITHER option is open.

    As for the underside, the color chart which dictated the Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 for underwing was part of the Tavolo 10 directive and was issued in 1941 not 1942. The picture is inconclusive as to the underwing color. The directive is also confusing because it also stated that existing stocks of paint were to be used up first. However if the profile is correct, the underwings definitely appear to be a lighter grey than Grigio Mimetico. The photograph doesn't appear to be the same camo scheme as the one in the profile however so again all bets are off.

    In addition, captured aircraft were often left in their original colors with only the markings replaced so its also possible that only the UPPER surfaces were repainted and the undersides were left in standard British camo colors.

    No matter, I think the lack of a COLOR photo gives the original poster fair game as to what they want to use.
     
  12. Startiger

    Startiger New Member

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    #12 Startiger, Nov 1, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    Keeping in mind that Italian Air Force (Regia Aeronautica) camouflage is a debatable subject and a 100% accuracy is almost impossible to reach.
    I don't fully agree with kgambit:
    - Tavola 10 was issued in October 1941 but was delivered to field units in mid 1942
    - The "new" color schemes, using the colors included in "Tavola 10", were officially issued in summer 1941
    - It is very clear dates are confusing... (you should just suppose to deliver colors first and then color schemes!)
    - The mottled scheme applied to Hurricane is the scheme used before Tavola 10 and related camouflage scheme
    - The Yugoslavian campaign ended in late spring 1941
    - The 2 captured Hurricanes retained the original Yugoslavian AF camouflage for a short time (even the underwing insignias were retained), with the addition of white fuselage band and rudder cross (as seen in "Regia Aeronautica, Colori e insegne", Intergest, 1974, picture nos 108-109-110). The yellow cowling was painted with the new color scheme (I have no idea if this is Hurricane No 1 or 2... where has the other Hurricane gone?)
    - Interior color: I still believe that repainting of the interior (cockpit) was not done.

    We should consider that the Hurricane was still flown by RAF and quickly evaluating such an A/C was a must, but for the same reason it was necessary to paint the A/C as a friend one. Doing a neat job in the cockpit (and keep in mind that Yugoslavian Hurricane had a short life) is time consuming. Perhaps some sort of warning was applied for engine throttle (Italian A/C had the throttle "reversed": full power towards the tail).
    Other captured A/C were not repainted at all (Dewoitine 520, Swordfish, P-38, Beaufighter)!

    Putting all together I believe the undersurfaces were most likely repainted in Grigio Mimetico (by the way, if you cross check pictures of other Regia aircraft, you see undersurfaces look quite light but they were, without doubt, painted in Grigio Mimetico); unfortunately I can't guess the correct colors for the uppersurfaces (among the varoius giallo mimetico [camouflage yellow)/marrone mimetico (camouflage brown)/verde mimetico (camouflege green) hues].
    I can't say if underwing fasces were white on black background or black on white background, picture 110 is misleading.
    Pay attention to camouflage pattern shown in the B/W picture:
    - 3 colors were used, camouflage yellow for the back ground with camouflage green and camouflage brown mottles. I think the darker hue is green
    - the brown and green mottles are quite large and irregurar in shape. The mottles shown in the profile and skin have not the same design
     
  13. Startiger

    Startiger New Member

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    More infos about captured Hurricane will follow ASAP as I was able to get a book with some other pictures
     
  14. Startiger

    Startiger New Member

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    Just yesterday I bought “Prede di guerra” (War Prizes) written by Giancarlo Garello and the following information is given:
    • Only one Hurricane was captured (ser no 2337)
    • This A/C was built in Yugoslavia by fabrika Aeroplana I Idroplana “Zmaj” in Zemus, close to Beograd
    • It was captured in Niksic in April 1941, then flown in Tirana (Albania)
    • It sported original Yugoslavian camouflage (irregular areas of dark green and dark brown and light grey undersurfaces); engine side panel, at least on the left side, in natural metal
    • At first only white fuselage band and rudder cross were painted (Yugoslavian wing insignias still in place)
    • Wing insignias were over painted with camouflage colors at a later stage, before being flown to Italy
    • When in Italy it was repainted as described in previous post BUT the base color SEEMS to be dark green with camouflage yellow and camouflage brown mottling (in an unique texture, quite close to the pattern applied to Swedish FIAT CR 42 – but not the same)
    • Underwing fasces were black on white disk (there is a clear picture in this book)
    • At a later stage the engine cowling was camouflaged but the mottling was smaller, and this area appeared darker than the remaining airframe (once agian a clear picture can confirm).

    Most information come from pictures with some other coming from illustration captions.

    If anyone can get this book (written in Italian and English) could find many interesting infos about foreign equipment in Regia Aeronautica flightlines.
     
  15. masm_71

    masm_71 New Member

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    Hi, all!

    I have a question that I trying to solve during a long time:

    After the italian Hurricane was repainted in italian colours (camuflaged), which type of roundels was applied (over and underwing)? Black faces on white disc or black faces on "transparent" disc?

    I check some sources but it's not clear.

    Thank you in advance!

    Miguel A. Sanchez
    Spain - España
     
  16. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Look above. The Italian National markings were white circles with black outline.On the white disks there were the fasces, an Axe strengthened by a bundle of sticks - a Roman symbol of power and government.
     
  17. masm_71

    masm_71 New Member

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    Thank you very much Wurger!

    Before send my question I checked the above messages, but in some photos that I have found this is not clear. Please, see the attached pictures (mainly the last one). It seems that the interior color of the italian roundel is the same that the underwing colour.

    So wondering if anyone had pictures which look good or some reliable reference.

    Thank you very much.

    Miguel A. Sanchez
    Spain - España
     
  18. masm_71

    masm_71 New Member

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    Sorry, I forgot the attached files... Here you are.

    Miguel A. Sanchez
    Spain - España
     

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  19. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #19 Wurger, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
    Humm..in the first pic it seems that Italian markings on undersides were with the white background. Those two next show no white colour there. But looking at the first pic and two next I'm not sure it is the same Hurricane.In my opinion there are differences in the camo spots between them.
     
  20. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    Interesting pics, I have to say the Italians did have good lookiung camo schemes
     
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