Research request – Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 4212 (S9+LS), 8./ZG 1, July 1942

[Den.S]

Title: Research request – Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 4212 (S9+LS), 8./ZG 1, July 1942

Hello everyone,

I am currently involved in the restoration of a flyable Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-7, Werknummer 4212 (code S9+LS, 8./ZG 1).
The aircraft was reported lost on 22 July 1942 near Kuteinikovo, Rostov region (Soviet Union).

Some secondary sources (for example Asisbiz: link) mention that Hauptmann Dominik Kneidel (sometimes written Kneidl) may have been connected to this loss, but this is not confirmed.

I would be very grateful for any information, documents, or photos related to:

• This specific aircraft (WNr. 4212, S9+LS)
• Unit 8./ZG 1 in mid-1942
• Records about Hauptmann Dominik Kneidel

We are restoring this aircraft to flying condition, so any help from the community would be greatly appreciated.

Please find attached a couple of photos of the current restoration project.

 

[Hornet133]

I had a look and don't have any of S9+LS in N.Africa. But do have these 2 of what is likely that airframe taken at Jesi in Italy in August 1942 (so it claimed) when they were transferring from the Russian Front to N.Africa.

 

[Den.S]

I had a look and don't have any of S9+LS in N.Africa. But do have these 2 of what is likely that airframe taken at Jesi in Italy in August 1942 (so it claimed) when they were transferring from the Russian Front to N.Africa.

The identification of S9+LS in Jesi in August 1942 is very interesting and helps clarify the aircraft's later history.
Do you know where these photos came from? Maybe from an archive or a private collection? And is it possible to get clearer copies?
Thank you- this is a big step forward in our research on W.Nr. 4212.

 

[Den.S]

I had a look and don't have any of S9+LS in N.Africa. But do have these 2 of what is likely that airframe taken at Jesi in Italy in August 1942 (so it claimed) when they were transferring from the Russian Front to N.Africa.

It seems that 8./ZG 1 was still operating on the Eastern Front during the summer of 1942.
The following photos appear to confirm their presence in southern Russia and Ukraine (Belgorod region and the Rostov area, near Kuteinikovo) in June–July 1942:

Attached below:

1. Bf 109 E-7 S9+LS – belly landing, likely near Kuteinikovo, Rostov region
2. Bf 109 E-7/B S9+BS – Belgorod, June 1942
3. Bf 109 E-7/U1 S9+KS – Belgorod Oblast, July 1942

This could indicate that S9+LS (W.Nr. 4212) was lost near Kuteinikovo before 8./ZG 1 transferred to Italy later that summer.

 

[fubar57]

I can't find Kneidel or Kneidl in the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries.

 

[Den.S]

I can't find Kneidel or Kneidl in the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries.

Hptm. Dominik Kneidel only shows up in a few secondary sources linked to the loss of S9+LS near Kuteinikovo on 22 July 1942. Nothing in primary records so far — could be a spelling issue or a mix-up. If anyone has access to the original Verlustmeldungen or ZG 1 rosters from that time, it might help clear this up.

 

[Den.S]

I had a look and don't have any of S9+LS in N.Africa. But do have these 2 of what is likely that airframe taken at Jesi in Italy in August 1942 (so it claimed) when they were transferring from the Russian Front to N.Africa.

As for the Jesi photo, I'd say it probably wasn't taken in Italy in August 1942. More likely it was shot earlier — before the "wasp" emblem and camouflage were added, and before the unit was sent to Russia.

 

[Crimea_River]

In his book "The Sting of the Luftwaffe" John Vasco confirms the loss of W.Nr. 4212 S9+LS on July 22, 1942 northeast of Rostov. Pilot was Staffelkapitän Dominikus Kneidl. No photos of your plane in that book unfortunately. There is one of S9+IS W.Nr 6431 shot down near El Alamein on Oct 2, 1942.

John might chime in here if he as more on your bird.

 

[Den.S]

I can't find Kneidel or Kneidl in the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries.

This is what I was able to find. I think it's that pilot.

 

[Den.S]

In his book "The Sting of the Luftwaffe" John Vasco confirms the loss of W.Nr. 4212 S9+LS on July 22, 1942 northeast of Rostov. Pilot was Staffelkapitän Dominikus Kneidl. No photos of your plane in that book unfortunately. There is one of S9+IS W.Nr 6431 shot down near El Alamein on Oct 2, 1942.

John might chime in here if he as more on your bird.

It would be great to see this page

 

[Crimea_River]

I'd suggest you contact John for photos as they are copyrighted. You can PM him on this site or wait to see if he pokes his head into this thread. Or, if he says it's OK I can post the page from his book.

 

[Den.S]

I'd suggest you contact John for photos as they are copyrighted. You can PM him on this site or wait to see if he pokes his head into this thread. Or, if he says it's OK I can post the page from his book.

Thank you, hat's very helpful. I'll reach out to John and see if he's willing to share the photo or the page from his book.

 

[John Vasco]

I've poked my head into this thread.

The information shown is correct. Information sourced from:
1. Luftwaffe Quartermaster's records held at the Imperial War Museum, London; and
2. Namentliche Verlustmeldung (form forwarded to Lw HQ notifying of the death/loss/ injury to Lw aircrew) held at the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) in Berlin.

22-07-42
Hptm. Dominikus Kneidl (Staffelkapitän)
8./ZG 1
Bf 109 E-7
S9+LS
W. Nr. 4212
Did not return from combat mission.
North-east of Rostow.

 

[Den.S]

I've poked my head into this thread.

The information shown is correct. Information sourced from:
1. Luftwaffe Quartermaster's records held at the Imperial War Museum, London; and
2. Namentliche Verlustmeldung (form forwarded to Lw HQ notifying of the death/loss/ injury to Lw aircrew) held at the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) in Berlin.

22-07-42
Hptm. Dominikus Kneidl (Staffelkapitän)
8./ZG 1
Bf 109 E-7
S9+LS
W. Nr. 4212
Did not return from combat mission.
North-east of Rostow.

Thanks, John — that confirms it completely.
So S9+LS was definitely lost near Rostov on 22 July 1942, and the photos were likely taken earlier, before the transfer east.

 

[Crimea_River]

Thanks, John — that confirms it completely.
So S9+LS was definitely lost near Rostov on 22 July 1942, and the photos were likely taken earlier, before the transfer east.

The photo of S9+LS in apparent desert camo could have also be LATER than July 1942, AFTER the unit transferred. It would not have been uncommon to reuse an aircraft designator letter, in this case "L", after loss of a previous bearer. There are only so many letters a unit can use so letters were reused. So, the aircraft shown in post#2 might be a different W.Nr.

 

[Den.S]

The photo of S9+LS in apparent desert camo could have also be LATER than July 1942, AFTER the unit transferred. It would not have been uncommon to reuse an aircraft designator letter, in this case "L", after loss of a previous bearer. There are only so many letters a unit can use so letters were reused. So, the aircraft shown in post#2 might be a different W.Nr.

I heard about this too. Just a guess, because the period between is very short.

 

[Hornet133]

Going back through this thread, I see where I was asked the source of the two images of S9+LS that I posted came from. Although we now know they are not of W.Nr 4212 but it's replacement that went to N.Africa.
The source was 'Asisbiz Zerstörergeschwader 1 Libya 1942' . It says taken at Jesi (Italy) on 24 Aug 1942 and the filenames include 'ebay' in their title. This means they got them from a Ebay sales page selling images from the collection of a deceased veteran. And the details (dates etc) is what was listed with the sale.
No I don't have other copies, if you still want them contact the Asisbiz people.
Reusing the code letter from a lost airframe was standard procedure, and this is no doubt the replacement for the lost W.Nr 4212.

 

[Den.S]

Going back through this thread, I see where I was asked the source of the two images of S9+LS that I posted came from. Although we now know they are not of W.Nr 4212 but it's replacement that went to N.Africa.
The source was 'Asisbiz Zerstörergeschwader 1 Libya 1942' . It says taken at Jesi (Italy) on 24 Aug 1942 and the filenames include 'ebay' in their title. This means they got them from a Ebay sales page selling images from the collection of a deceased veteran. And the details (dates etc) is what was listed with the sale.
No I don't have other copies, if you still want them contact the Asisbiz people.
Reusing the code letter from a lost airframe was standard procedure, and this is no doubt the replacement for the lost W.Nr 4212.

Interesting detail I noticed on the Asisbiz site —
the aircraft lost near Rostov belonged to 8./ZG 1 (S9+LS, W.Nr. 4212),
while the one photographed in Italy in August 1942 is listed as 7./ZG 1 (S9+LS).
So the code seems to have been transferred between squadrons 8 and 7.

 

[Wurger]

The S9 code didn't belonged to the 8th or the 9th squadron actually but to the ZG1 regiment. When the III Gruppe of the ZG1 was formed and equiped with the Bf 109E-7/B (E-4/B) on 4 January 1942, they created the 7th, 8th and 9th squadrons. As memo serves, the S9 code belonged to the Erprobungsgruppe 210, Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 initailly and then just to the Zerstörergeschwader 1 from 1942 to 1943.
Because the Gruppe was the Jabo one but not the fighter unit , the markings were the same as used for the KG or SG squadrons. The regiment code was painted on left of the LW cross and then the individual letter of an aircraft in the squadron and the letter identifying the squadron on the right. Additionally, the colour of the individaual letter indicated the squadron ( Staffel ) as well. The examples: the 8th Staffel full code was S9+AS where the "A' was red and the black "S" was the 8th squadron ID. Also it looks like the 8th Staffel could have the individual letter of the black. The 9th Staffel kite wore the S9+GT code where the "G" aircraft individual letter was of the yellow and the "T" indicated the 9th squadron. See the images below.

BTW ... the 7th Staffel had the "R" letter as its ID and the aircraft individual letter was of the white.

The 7th Staffel ...

The 8th Staffel ...

The 9th Staffel ...

 

[Crimea_River]

Interesting detail I noticed on the Asisbiz site —
the aircraft lost near Rostov belonged to 8./ZG 1 (S9+LS, W.Nr. 4212),
while the one photographed in Italy in August 1942 is listed as 7./ZG 1 (S9+LS).
So the code seems to have been transferred between squadrons 8 and 7.

Wojtek's post above is bang on and is consistent with the captions in the two pictures above in post #2. The first pic shows aircraft of the 7th staffel with the R code and white aircraft letter. The first and 3rd aircraft have the squadron code obscured but the aircraft in the foreground has a darker coloured letter L and is presumably the same aircraft in the second photo. The second photo is correctly captioned as an 8 staffel machine. It's clear that at least two staffeln were based together in the first pic.