Retreat after retreat. Would the RAF been better off building bomber transports in a 1:1 ratio with medium bombers?

[Kevin J]

Given that the UK & Western Desert also requires fighters, adding 400+ fighters wasn't a realistically achievable goal IMO.
Adding about 100-150 fighters would be much more workable.

In which case all that's available is the Mohawk IV and the Vultee Vanguard goes to India. That would work.

 

[Shortround6]

The Vultee Vanguard was judged unsuitable for combat by the British, they didn't even want them as fighter trainers.

The Chinese got the short end of the stick, basically any aircraft the US, Britain (and/or commonwealth) Dutch exile government, and any other allies didn't want.

Please read Vultee P-66 Vanguard - Wikipedia

granted it is Wiki but pinning your hopes on the Vanguard/P-66 was like pinning your hopes on another 100 Brewster Buffaloes. Given green pilots and inadequate logistics they are only going to be a speed bump for the Japanese.

 

[Kevin J]

The Vultee Vanguard was judged unsuitable for combat by the British, they didn't even want them as fighter trainers.

The Chinese got the short end of the stick, basically any aircraft the US, Britain (and/or commonwealth) Dutch exile government, and any other allies didn't want.

Please read Vultee P-66 Vanguard - Wikipedia

granted it is Wiki but pinning your hopes on the Vanguard/P-66 was like pinning your hopes on another 100 Brewster Buffaloes. Given green pilots and inadequate logistics they are only going to be a speed bump for the Japanese.

In India they will be out of harm's way until Hurricanes arrive freeing Mohawks for use in Malaya.

 

[Shortround6]

This is judging with 20/20 hindsight. You know the Japanese did not attack India which means any sort of airplane could have been used, in fact no airplanes could have assigned to the India border for most of the war with no change in the war's progress (except for the amount of training such border patrol flights gave). But if the Japanese had changed their axis of attack such a policy might not have turned out well.

I would also note that Hawks using Wright Cyclone engines might not have preformed as well as some people hope. Many users of the Hawks and Buffaloes reported trouble with the oil systems in fighter use (not bomber or transport) and the French in North Africa went to the trouble of re-engining their Cyclone Hawks with P&W R-1830s twin wasps when they could (after joining the Allies) .

 

[Kevin J]

This is judging with 20/20 hindsight. You know the Japanese did not attack India which means any sort of airplane could have been used, in fact no airplanes could have assigned to the India border for most of the war with no change in the war's progress (except for the amount of training such border patrol flights gave). But if the Japanese had changed their axis of attack such a policy might not have turned out well.

I would also note that Hawks using Wright Cyclone engines might not have preformed as well as some people hope. Many users of the Hawks and Buffaloes reported trouble with the oil systems in fighter use (not bomber or transport) and the French in North Africa went to the trouble of re-engining their Cyclone Hawks with P&W R-1830s twin wasps when they could (after joining the Allies) .

The only way to India was though Burma.

 

[Shortround6]

The only way to India was though Burma.

True but Rangoon is about 1200 miles from Singapore and the northern border of Burma is around 600 miles from Rangoon.
Any fighter aircraft in Malaysia might as well be back in England for all the good they would be to defending Burma.

AIrcraft in Burma and India were defending the Burma road, the main supply route into China.

 

[Kevin J]

True but Rangoon is about 1200 miles from Singapore and the northern border of Burma is around 600 miles from Rangoon.
Any fighter aircraft in Malaysia might as well be back in England for all the good they would be to defending Burma.

AIrcraft in Burma and India were defending the Burma road, the main supply route into China.

Looks like we need a lot more Hurricanes out there a lot sooner than later because the Spitfire VB Trop wasn't operational till Feb 42, and there's no way you could describe a Kittyhawk I/Ia as an interceptor.

 

[buffnut453]

Among the very first air actions of the Pacific War was the RAAF Hudson's from Khota Baru against the Japanese invasion fleet, so they must have been capable of nighht flying?

None of the Malayan airfields were equipped for night operations. In my original post, I stated that night ops would only be conducted in extremis. Commencement of the Japanese invasion certainly counts as an "in extremis" situation, IMHO. That doesn't change the fact that the Malayan airfields were grass strips that were prone to flooding and lacked basic night-flying fundamentals as runway and taxiway lighting.

On at least one occasion, night take-offs were accomplished by lining up an aircraft on the runway, then driving a truck along the length of the runway with a couple of erks in the back of the truck throwing out gooseneck flares to illuminate the path before the aircraft took off. The ability to conduct true night ops is rather different from simply doing occasional night flying. In Malaya, the only training ever accomplished was the latter....and that was very seldom. The airfields simply were not equipped for night ops.

 

[buffnut453]

True but Rangoon is about 1200 miles from Singapore and the northern border of Burma is around 600 miles from Rangoon.
Any fighter aircraft in Malaysia might as well be back in England for all the good they would be to defending Burma.

AIrcraft in Burma and India were defending the Burma road, the main supply route into China.

The RAF regularly transited aircraft between Burma and Singapore using a chain of airfields prior to the Japanese invasion. It was a key part of the defensive plan. The challenge came when Thailand and the airfields in northern Malaya fell, thus cutting the route. A classic case of not planning for the worst-case scenario, perhaps?

 

[Kevin J]

The RAF regularly transited aircraft between Burma and Singapore using a chain of airfields prior to the Japanese invasion. It was a key part of the defensive plan. The challenge came when Thailand and the airfields in northern Malaya fell, thus cutting the route. A classic case of not planning for the worst-case scenario, perhaps?

You should look at the South Pacific air supply route on Wikipedia to the Philippines that the Americans had, even worse.

 

[Shortround6]

The RAF regularly transited aircraft between Burma and Singapore using a chain of airfields prior to the Japanese invasion. It was a key part of the defensive plan. The challenge came when Thailand and the airfields in northern Malaya fell, thus cutting the route. A classic case of not planning for the worst-case scenario, perhaps?

Or underestimating the Japanese and not thinking they could attack in several places at once?

Transferring aircraft from Malaya to Burma (and vice versa) might take several days (if done by squadron) and is hardly suitable for operations, even if practical for reinforcement.


I thank you for the correction on the transit airfields but, as you say, it was not a good solution to the situation they found themselves in.

I will note that the number of Mohawks was not anywhere near what some people think. Of the 204 Hawk 75A-4s (Mohawk IVs) that England got, after a while in store, 90 were supposed to go to the mid east, 90 to South Africa and 24 to Aden. At one point 30 were supposed to go to Greece but a shortage of shipping and the rapidly changing situation changed that.
The SAAF did get large number, enough went to India to equip No 5 and No 155 squadrons of the RAF and No 151 operational training unit.
16 were allocated to Portugal (although perhaps only 15 arrived?) in an attempt to persuade that country to remain in the Allied camp.

Equipping combat units (with green pilots) in South East Asia would pretty much come at the expense of training units in the Mid East, South Africa and India, leading to a lower standard of pilots coming into service in 1942.

 

[Kevin J]

Or underestimating the Japanese and not thinking they could attack in several places at once?

Transferring aircraft from Malaya to Burma (and vice versa) might take several days (if done by squadron) and is hardly suitable for operations, even if practical for reinforcement.


I thank you for the correction on the transit airfields but, as you say, it was not a good solution to the situation they found themselves in.

I will note that the number of Mohawks was not anywhere near what some people think. Of the 204 Hawk 75A-4s (Mohawk IVs) that England got, after a while in store, 90 were supposed to go to the mid east, 90 to South Africa and 24 to Aden. At one point 30 were supposed to go to Greece but a shortage of shipping and the rapidly changing situation changed that.
The SAAF did get large number, enough went to India to equip No 5 and No 155 squadrons of the RAF and No 151 operational training unit.
16 were allocated to Portugal (although perhaps only 15 arrived?) in an attempt to persuade that country to remain in the Allied camp.

Equipping combat units (with green pilots) in South East Asia would pretty much come at the expense of training units in the Mid East, South Africa and India, leading to a lower standard of pilots coming into service in 1942.

The only solution to the problem that I can see is the Indian Air Force existed in combat ready form by 1941 and not 1944. That India had an aircraft manufacturing industry too.

 

[fastmongrel]

The only solution to the problem that I can see is the Indian Air Force existed in combat ready form by 1941 and not 1944. That India had an aircraft manufacturing industry too.

That probably means a start for the RIAF in the mid 1930s if not earlier for a air industry.

 

[Kevin J]

That probably means a start for the RIAF in the mid 1930s if not earlier for a air industry.

First 3 RIAF Hurricane squadrons operational in 1942, by 1944 lots
of them. Big problem was Ghandi. He wanted no part in Imperial defence plans.

 

[Shortround6]

That probably means a start for the RIAF in the mid 1930s if not earlier for a air industry.

Please remember that the British were having trouble equipping some of the shadow factories in England.

Most of the machine tools to equip aircraft plants in India (or Australia or Canada) would have to come from the supplies used to equip the new factories in England.
England was importing some machine tools from the US, Germany and Switzerland in the mid to late 30s as the British machine tool industry could not meet the requirements.
Perhaps it could have if the machine tool industry was gear up even earlier.

 

[Kevin J]

Please remember that the British were having trouble equipping some of the shadow factories in England.

Most of the machine tools to equip aircraft plants in India (or Australia or Canada) would have to come from the supplies used to equip the new factories in England.
England was importing some machine tools from the US, Germany and Switzerland in the mid to late 30s as the British machine tool industry could not meet the requirements.
Perhaps it could have if the machine tool industry was gear up even earlier.

Like the 1920's? So providing WW2 was planned for in 1928, we'd have been okay? Can't be earlier than 1928 because of the 10 year rule. Umm. Can't do that there's a global recession looking. First Japan needs to cause us sleepless nights. So it's back to the 1930's and Ghandi and his Congress Party want no part of our Imperial defence plans.

 

[wuzak]

In India they will be out of harm's way until Hurricanes arrive freeing Mohawks for use in Malaya.

Yay, Hurricanes to the rescue!