Catch22
Major
Or very large! 
Roll Back 1 year
- Thread starter comiso90
- Start date
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Ramifications - consequences, result of
gynormic - don't know but good word!I don't think you'll find it in an English dictionary but something along the lines of: out of this world, considerable impact, gewaltig, ungerheuerlich, riesig
Ja, ja, gewaltig ist die wort!
tango35
Airman 1st Class
For the night i would like to see the He 219 one year earlier in operational use - would be a shock for the RAF Bomber Command.
And for the day the Fw 190 D with well experinced pilots to make it equal.
And for the day the Fw 190 D with well experinced pilots to make it equal.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I like the P38. Imagine the "J" models being available and in production in 1941.
Escorted bombers in the ETO in 1942. P38's in the PI in 1941.
Escorted bombers in the ETO in 1942. P38's in the PI in 1941.
Interesting question, but it partly depends on the numbers, too. If we move those up, I agree the Hellcat would seem a strong contender. In addition to speed and range over the Wildcat, huge numbers were made over a short period of time. While the F4U was a somewhat higher performing plane, it still took quite a time to figure out how to fly it from carriers: it arrived some months after the Hellcat on ships.
If the F6F could have been gotten in those numbers to Guadalcanal and onto lots of carriers during the fall of 1942, the whole Solomons campaign (when the war there was still at a tipping point) might have proceeded in a different time frame, since air superiority for the US was pretty tenuous during much of it.
To me, this isn't just an "either / or" answer. The later part of the Pacific war (early to mid-1944 on), you could argue, started to be more limited by the ability to take islands than by air superiority alone. Hellcats looked good not just because they were better rounded planes than Zeros, but also because there were more ships to carry more planes. Suicide attacks apart, control of the air was clear after the Marianas Turkey Shoot and relatively few vessels ultimately were lost to kamikazes.
Alternately, an additional year of escorted daylight bombing in Europe (P-38, P-51, ANYTHING) would have meant thousands of lives, too. The numbers of casualties in both theaters that could have changed is very sobering.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I dont think we can include the Hellcat in this scenario, since the design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero.
According to my P38 book, there were 207 P38's delivered in 1941 and 1478 in 1942. Considering that the P38 was delayed by 6 - 12 months in development from one reason or another, the scenario where the P38 begins mass production in early 1941 is quite historically possible.
Since the P38 would be available in sufficient numbers by Dec 1941/Jan 1942, then it would be deployed to New Guinea well before the Guadalcanal invasion and would have an immediate impact on IJN air operations. Deployment on Guadalcanal once it was in allied hands would further give the Japanese major headaches and the loss of air supremacy.
According to my P38 book, there were 207 P38's delivered in 1941 and 1478 in 1942. Considering that the P38 was delayed by 6 - 12 months in development from one reason or another, the scenario where the P38 begins mass production in early 1941 is quite historically possible.
Since the P38 would be available in sufficient numbers by Dec 1941/Jan 1942, then it would be deployed to New Guinea well before the Guadalcanal invasion and would have an immediate impact on IJN air operations. Deployment on Guadalcanal once it was in allied hands would further give the Japanese major headaches and the loss of air supremacy.
Hi, syscom3,
Any info about "the [Hellcat's] design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero"? Thanks.
P-38 would've made a difference surely,esp. when we see the time wasted between the 1st flight and the serial production. Whomever is to blame for that.
Any info about "the [Hellcat's] design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero"? Thanks.
P-38 would've made a difference surely,esp. when we see the time wasted between the 1st flight and the serial production. Whomever is to blame for that.
F6F Hellcat: Design was started well before Pearl Harbor, but later experience with Japanese influenced the development.
P-38 Lightning: There is no one to "blame." It's more or less a matter of development. One could say the aircraft was "ahead of its time" and encountered phenomena that took more time to work through than anticipated.
P-51 by contrast went from drawing board to shooting down aircraft more quickly and cost-effectively than most would have anticipated.
Fair comment. But could I come back and argue that enough had been seen of the Zero in China to know that a bigger engine (R2800 vs R2600) to improve speed and climb was already a pretty clear choice? The other major features for survivability (lots of armor plate, self sealing tanks) were already part of the F4F. We could argue about range and number of machine guns, but it was my impression too that the basic design was well underway by mid-1941.
The major issue I'd have with trying to move up the F6F is that it needs an accessory to make it as hugely dominant as later in the war: Essex class carriers and lots of them.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Mosquitos
can you imagine how much further along the art of GCI and intruding would have been
can you imagine how much further along the art of GCI and intruding would have been
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Yes, you are correct. Fall of 1941.
Most of the delay was from losing the only prototype on a cross country stunt. That setback the normal development time quite some months.
I think those were the allison equiped Mustangs, which were not the same beast as the Packard engines Mustangs.
Yes, that's what I said in my original post:
"Even with the Allison engine, the ramifications of fielding the P-51 in May 1941 would have been gynormic.
This also means P-51 development would have been a year ahead as well, i.e., Merlin engine."
