Russia Loses the Quantity War

[Henk]

Well I remember the two Korean airliners that was shot down by the Russians during the cold war and they went off course and was thus shot down by intercepting aircraft and caused a lot of uproar in the world. The second one to be shot down was a B-747 with the loss of all on board.

What the Russians did was not needed and they was paranoid at the time and thus shot the aircraft down.

Today aircraft are more advanced and like FlyboyJ said they have the right equipment to let the ground identify a enemy from a civilian airliner.

 

[Freebird]

Russia would have had a hard time trying to control the air when it was able to produce thousands of jets that were behind the Americans on a technological basis, relying on quantity to overcome American quality. Now, Russia would likely be outnumbered and facing airplanes that would be at least on par with theirs. Russia went from having a decent chance of winning air superiority in a war against the United States to none. ?

By, Harold C. Hutchison

Things may be changing though, now that a resugent Russia { perhaps it's mid-east clients} can rake in $130/ barrel for oil, while the US may be facing cutbacks in the future, due to a Democratic President Congress....

 

[Kruska]

Well I remember the two Korean airliners that was shot down by the Russians during the cold war and they went off course and was thus shot down by intercepting aircraft and caused a lot of uproar in the world. The second one to be shot down was a B-747 with the loss of all on board.

What the Russians did was not needed and they was paranoid at the time and thus shot the aircraft down.

Today aircraft are more advanced and like FlyboyJ said they have the right equipment to let the ground identify a enemy from a civilian airliner.

Hello Henk,

Well like you said, the Russians were paranoid (after all it was amidst the cold war). The Korean airliner was way out of his designated (approved flight route) and he was passing over a very sensitive area. If true or not – at that time and even until today military aircrafts will use the "shadow" of a civil airliner or even use electronics "overriding –decoy" technology to take advantage of this or even "generate" a shadow.

A stealth aircraft is a good way to avoid this previous scenario

Regards
Kruska

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think KAL 007 was trying to make up for lost time....

From Wiki...


Delayed one hour because of strong tail winds (to avoid arriving at Kimpo airport prior to its work opening at 6 A.M.), KAL 007 departed Anchorage International Airport at 13:00 GMT (4:00 a.m. Alaskan time). It was the practice of Korean Airlines to sometimes delay a flight so that it would not arrive at Kimpo Airport in Seoul, Korea prior to 6:00 a.m., as customs and passenger handling personnel began their operations at that time. Climbing, the jumbo jet turned left, seeking its assigned route J501, which would soon take it onto the northernmost of five 50-mile wide passenger plane air corridors that bridge the Alaskan and Japanese coasts. These five corridors are called the NOPAC (North Pacific) routes. KAL 007's particular corridor, Romeo 20, passed just 17 1/2 miles from Soviet airspace off the Kamchatka coast.

At about 10 minutes after take-of, KAL 007 began to deviate to the right (north) of its assigned route. ICAO analysis of the Flight Data recorder provides no reason for this deviation[8]

At 28 minutes after takeoff, civilian radar at Kenai, on the eastern shore of Cook Inlet and 53 nautical miles southwest of Anchorage, with a radar coverage of 175 miles west of Anchorage, tracked KAL 007 5.6 miles north of where it should have been. Where it should have been was a location "fixed" by the nondirectional radio beacon (NDB) of Cairne Mountain.

KAL 007 continued on its night journey, having previously received clearance (13:02:40 GMT) to proceed "direct Bethel" when able. Bethel is a small fishing village on the western tip of Alaska, 350 nautical miles west of Anchorage. It is the last U. S. mainland navigational point . But KAL 007 did not make Bethel for at 50 minutes after takeoff, military radar at King's Salmon, Alaska, tracked KAL 007 at a full 12.6 nautical miles north of where it should have been. It had exceeded its permissible leeway of deviation by six times (two nautical miles an hour error is the permissible drift from course set by INS).

Halfway between waypoint NABIE in its Inertial Navigation System (INS) guided flight, and not yet having reached its next required reporting waypoint, NEEVA, KAL 007 passed through the southern portion of the United States Air Force NORAD (North American Air Defense) buffer zone. This zone, monitored intensively by U. S. Intelligence assets, lies north of Romeo 20, KAL 007's designated air route, and is off-limits to civilian aircraft. KAL was apparently undetected—or, if detected, unreported.

And so KAL 007 continued its night journey, ever increasing its deviation—60 nautical miles off course at waypoint NABIE, 100 nautical miles off course at waypoint NUKKS, and 160 nautical miles off course at waypoint NEEVA—until it penetrated Kamchatka's borders[9]

At 15:51 GMT, according to Soviet sources, KAL 007 "bumped" the Soviet buffer zone of Kamchatka Peninsula. The buffer zone was generally considered to extend 200 km. from Kamchatka's coast and is technically known as a Flight Information Region (FIR). The 200 km buffer zone is counterpart to the United States' Aerospace Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), but the 100 km radius of the buffer zone nearest to Soviet territory had the additional designation of Air Defense Zone. Heightened surveillance measures would be taken against any non-Soviet aircraft entering the Air Defense Zone.

 

[Kruska]

Hello FLYBOY,

Very possible indeed,

I just had in mind all these Newspaper and magazine articles "forwarding" US espionage and using that KAL liner as a shadow. Some even went so far as to "document" that the US aircraft had even deliberately malfunctioned the navigation system of the KAL flight and some "ventured" on to CIA ground crews manipulating the nav system onboard before takeoff.

Regards
Kruska

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hello FLYBOY,

Very possible indeed,

I just had in mind all these Newspaper and magazine articles "forwarding" US espionage and using that KAL liner as a shadow. Some even went so far as to "document" that the US aircraft had even deliberately malfunctioned the navigation system of the KAL flight and some "ventured" on to CIA ground crews manipulating the nav system onboard before takeoff.

Regards
Kruska

Yep - I remember those conspiracy theories - hogwash!

 

[Kruska]

Hello FLYBOY,

Without wanting to divert this thread,

one thing I keep wondering about is the US defense doctrine and strategically deployment of its bases and forces.
Many people are talking about Russia – upcoming - armed forces modernization programs, etc. etc. To me, to say it very bluntly the only Weapons of Mass Destruction besides actual existing ABC systems they have is Vodka.

To me a real threat for the next 20 years is still the Middle East with a very valid extension towards Pakistan – India. China to me is not likely at all and if, then maybe in 30-40 years onward.

Besides Diego Garcia and the carrier fleets there are actually no bases or allies around Pakistan-India that would enable the US to keep a control or even to engage these two countries or let's say India with a solid base next or bordering these two.

Does the US in your opinion underestimate this Pakistan-India scenario or what could the US do in such an event?

Regards
Kruska

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hello FLYBOY,

Without wanting to divert this thread,

one thing I keep wondering about is the US defense doctrine and strategically deployment of its bases and forces.
Many people are talking about Russia – upcoming - armed forces modernization programs, etc. etc. To me, to say it very bluntly the only Weapons of Mass Destruction besides actual existing ABC systems they have is Vodka.

To me a real threat for the next 20 years is still the Middle East with a very valid extension towards Pakistan – India. China to me is not likely at all and if, then maybe in 30-40 years onward.

Besides Diego Garcia and the carrier fleets there are actually no bases or allies around Pakistan-India that would enable the US to keep a control or even to engage these two countries or let's say India with a solid base next or bordering these two.

Does the US in your opinion underestimate this Pakistan-India scenario or what could the US do in such an event?

Regards
Kruska

Interesting subject Kruska. IMO I think the US has somewhat "played" both sides for years. While touting India as "the world's biggest democracy" we have armed Pakistan to the teeth. When both nations developed nukes the stakes were raised but I think the US has the attitude like it is dealing with two rival children who every so many hears beat the crap out of each other. Also keep in mind that the Chinese are not favorites of the Indians and Pakistan also takes advantage of that in the form or weapons purchases.

Add in Islamic Fundamentalism, and you have a large twisted web. Despite hatred there towards the west (with regards to Pakistan) I think India will always be viewed as the main threat.

Now with all that said, will the US ever intervene in a conflict between the two? I doubt it. Does the US look at either one as a threat? probably not except for the fact that we know Pakistan's connection with islamic fundamentalism. - As in the previous brush fire wars I think the US will just watch and let the two slug it out, hoping that they keep their nukes in check.

 

[Kruska]

Hello FLYBOY,

Actually I do not see a Pakistan-India conflict in this hypothetic scenario but rather a sole Indian scenario. So I am looking at this just as a war gaming scenario – US/Russia or China/US which is forwarded as a possible scenario by the US or others.
If one analyses the strategic setup and placements of US forces around the globe, it just becomes obvious that India seems to be a "white patch" in any US strategy scenario. Even though I would see a probable conflict just as realistic as with the other two countries.

Regards
Kruska

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Airliners fly specific routes at specific altitudes and are under control of approach and departure centers - they carry transponders and are assigned squawk codes to specifically identify them.

Besides no airliners were flying over Iraq anyhow. I believe the whole area was made a no fly zone for commercial traffic.