Short Stirling

[ThomasP]

Hey nuuumannn,

re:"One issue that meant the Halifax was not going to compete with the Lancaster was in its bomb bay design. . . This meant that without modification, the Halifax could not carry any bomb with a diameter larger than standard bombs the RAF began the war with."

As far as I have been able to determine, the Halifax bomb bay as designed could carry (ie fit within the bomb bay with the doors open or closed) every bomb the RAF used during the war, except for the 4000 lb and larger bombs. From the B Mk I variant the maximum load was 9x1000+6x500=12,000 lbs or 2x2000+6x1000+6x500=13,000 lbs. Admittedly the wing bomb cells could only accommodate the 6x500 lb bombs. Later the Halifax was deployed operationally with the 4000 lb and 8000 lb HC.

As 33k in the air mentions in his post above, the original Lancaster I/III as built could carry 14x500=7000 lbs. At some time production switched (I think) to upto 6x2000+3x250=12,750 lbs and eventually to 14x1000=14,000 lbs as time allowed. The 20x500=10,000 lbs is a load I had not heard of before.

While the Halifax needed bulged bomb bay door mods to allow the carriage of the 4000 lb HC totally enclosed, so did the Lancaster. The Lancaster door mods that allowed the carriage of the 4000 lb HC tapered very gently into the fore and aft structure, so are not always noticeable. The door arrangement that allowed the carriage of the 8000 lb HC was even deeper and had a more noticeable steeply taper/fairing in the forward area and were abrupt and un-tapered at the aft end (I think most of the 8000 lb mods were to the Lancaster Mk II variant, but I am not sure of this).

While as you said above, they did not (as far as I have been able to find) deploy the bulged doors operationally for the Halifax, there is no practical reason they could not have done so.

As you and I say in our posts above, the Halifax simply had somewhat poorer aerodynamics than the Lancaster, and did not receive the mods needed, for various reasons unrelated to the eventual capabilities of the later Mks of the Halifax.

____________________Operations____ TARE_______ Max___________Max_________________________Fuel
______________________Date________Weight_____TOGW_______Fuel Load______Bomb Load____Allowance_____Range

Halifax Mk I___________ 3/41______34,500 lbs___59,000 lbs_____955 Impgal____ 13,000 lbs_____ 220 Impgal____1000 miles
_________________________________________________________ 1640 Impgal____ ~7,750 lbs_____ 220 Impgal____1840 miles

Halifax Mk II Srs 1A____ 1/43?_____35,600 lbs___60,000 lbs_____830 Impgal____ 13,000 lbs_____ 290 Impgal_____650 miles
_________________________________________________________ 1882 Impgal____ ~5,000 lbs_____ 290 Impgal____1660 miles

Halifax Mk III__________ 1/44______37,800 lbs___65,000 lbs____1150 Impgal____ 13,000 lbs_____ 385 Impgal____1030 miles
__________________________________________________________1986 Impgal_____ 7,000 lbs_____ 385 Impgal____1985 miles

Lancaster Mk I/III______ 3/42______36,900 lbs___68,000 lbs____1625 Impgal_____14,000 lbs_____ 270 Impgal____1660 miles
__________________________________________________________2150 Impgal____ 10,000 lbs_____ 270 Impgal____ 2250 miles

 

[tomo pauk]

Short Brothers had the Empire flying with larger dimensions than the Stirling. It was adequate with Pegasus Xc engines, with 920 hp for takeoff.
Obviously the Stirling is a different ball of wax, but the fact that Empire did hit its performance targets first time did show that Gouge and his team were capable of successfully using a slide rule on large aircraft.

Nobody accused Short Bros of their aircraft not being able to take off.
What they gotten wrong here was the size and weight of the Stirling.

 

[nuuumannn]

As far as I have been able to determine, the Halifax bomb bay as designed could carry (ie fit within the bomb bay with the doors open or closed) every bomb the RAF used during the war, except for the 4000 lb and larger bombs. From the B Mk I variant the maximum load was 9x1000+6x500=12,000 lbs or 2x2000+6x1000+6x500=13,000 lbs. Admittedly the wing bomb cells could only accommodate the 6x500 lb bombs. Later the Halifax was deployed operationally with the 4000 lb and 8000 lb HC.

That's right, as I said, until the bomb bay doors could be altered the Halifax couldn't carry any RAF bombs that the type hadn't been designed to carry. The carriage of the 4,000 lb bomb by the Halifax slowed it down and induced drag. The point I made was that the modification was not as simple as to the Lancaster, which involved removing two doors that were secured at each end, whereas the Halifax had actuators in the middle of the bomb bay, which sectioned the bay. Those pictures you published are good and show the Lancaster doors, not the Halifax ones.

This picture illustrates the point I'm making, note the location of the door actuators.

http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/RCAFRoyalCanadianAirForceMuseum/HandleyPageHalifax/images/04HalifaxBombBay.jpg

In this one you can clearly see the disposition of the doors.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/84/e8/9b84e8466824a796e8348c62ce52a399.jpg

While as you said above, they did not (as far as I have been able to find) deploy the bulged doors operationally for the Halifax, there is no practical reason they could not have done so.

True, 50 sets were ordered but they were not taken up and the decision to fit them to squadron examples didn't go ahead simply because the Halifax declined in importance compared to the Lancaster as its numbers increased. In fact Harris simply wanted to halt production of both the Stirling and the Halifax once the Lancaster entered service. The Halifax took longer to build, was slower, handled worse and until mid 1944 suffered higher loss rates (the Lancaster began to suffer higher loss rates toward the end of the war owing to the larger numbers in use and the wider variety of operations it carried out).

 

[33k in the air]

Later the Halifax was deployed operationally with the 4000 lb and 8000 lb HC.

Do you happen to know which Halifax squadrons these would be which dropped 4000-lb or 8,000-lb bombs? The Halifax squadrons ORBs I've looked at so far all show the 2,000-lb HC bomb being the heaviest carried.

As 33k in the air mentions in his post above, the original Lancaster I/III as built could carry 14x500=7000 lbs. At some time production switched (I think) to upto 6x2000+3x250=12,750 lbs and eventually to 14x1000=14,000 lbs as time allowed. The 20x500=10,000 lbs is a load I had not heard of before.

18 x 500-lb was common in 1944 (at a minimum, 90, 101, 115, 419, and 514 Squadron Lancasters all carried this load at some point during 1944-45).

20 x 500-lb was hauled by at least 101, 419, and 428 Squadrons (the latter two being Lancaster X rather than I/III). There is a photo of a 428 Squadron pilot and bomb aimer standing beneath the open bomb bay doors of their Lancaster X, with the caption stating the load is 500-lb bombs — there are a total of 20 bombs in the bay (five rows of four bombs across).

 

[Graeme]

I love John Batchelor's artwork. Presuming it's to scale - gives a good impression of the Stirling's length...

 

[Glider]

Its often forgotten that in the, for want of a better phrase, first wave of RAF four engine bombers, namely the Manchester, Sterling and Halifax I. The Sterling had the better operational statistics.
The Halifax was of course ultimately developed into the Halifax III and the Manchester became the Lancaster, whereas the Sterling was pretty much unaltered.

So when comparing the Sterling I think its worth bearing that into ind

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I love John Batchelor's artwork. Presuming it's to scale - gives a good impression of the Stirling's length...

View attachment 652455

I'm familiar with Batchelor's works primarily through Soul of the Sword from O'Connell. Batchelor is certainly a great artist -- and the book I've mentioned is, in my opinion, a good if somewhat superficial look at the history of weaponry.

 

[GrauGeist]

I love John Batchelor's artwork. Presuming it's to scale - gives a good impression of the Stirling's length...

View attachment 652455

The Stirling's size certainly was impressive.

Wiki has always had a good size comparison overlay of the Stirling versus other bombers available:

 

[nuuumannn]

Do you happen to know which Halifax squadrons these would be which dropped 4000-lb or 8,000-lb bombs?

76 Sqn was the first to do so on 11 April 1942 over Essen by B.II R9487. Trials with the bombs fitted revealed the excessive drag of the bombs protruding below the fuselage and the bomb bay doors sitting against the bomb when partially closed, and so a doped strip of heavy canvas was installed to cover the bomb over at the front end in a bid to reduce drag.

 

[nuuumannn]

As a piece of contemporary artwork, it's great, but in terms of accuracy the aeroplanes are all a bit misshapen and little attention has been paid to precision of line.

Wiki has always had a good size comparison overlay of the Stirling versus other bombers available:

That is indeed a good representative illustration and it's pleasing that someone has done that.

 

[nuuumannn]

Its often forgotten that in the, for want of a better phrase, first wave of RAF four engine bombers, namely the Manchester, Sterling and Halifax I. The Sterling had the better operational statistics.

This is true, Glider, but all that this point illustrates is that the Halifax and Manchester were troublesome, reflecting badly on the two types. But their subsequent history proved they could be modified into something greater than their initial incarnation, whereas the Stirling could not, strictly speaking, as a bomber, although that big fuselage made a good space to carry cargo, including the self loading kind - as did the Halifax, to be fair, but the Lancaster's hull was too narrow for passenger comfort in the Lancastrian to be the equal of the Stirling and Halifax/Halton.

What is worth remembering is that Stirling production continued for some time after its retirement from the frontline use with Bomber Command as the type was built primarily as a transport, in which role it was successful.

 

[33k in the air]

76 Sqn was the first to do so on 11 April 1942 over Essen by B.II R9487. Trials with the bombs fitted revealed the excessive drag of the bombs protruding below the fuselage and the bomb bay doors sitting against the bomb when partially closed, and so a doped strip of heavy canvas was installed to cover the bomb over at the front end in a bid to reduce drag.

Unfortunately, the 76 Squadron ORBs don't list the bomb loads carried.

Anyone know what other Halifax-equipped squadrons dropped the 4,000-lb or 8,000-lb on a regular or semi-regular basis? (I can state with certainty that neither 408 nor 433 Squadrons dropped anything heavier than a 2,000-lb on their missions which flew the Halifax.)

 

[ThomasP]

Hey 33k in the air,

Sorry, but no. In my notes I list the 4000 lb HC being deployed to Halifax squadrons operating out of No.42 Base (RAF Elvington, Melbourne, and Pocklington) and out of Tholthorpe, but I did not record any Squadron numbers.

I have the 4000 lb HC being employed against Duisburg in the April 1943 raids, by the Halifax squadron operating out of Tholthorpe

Also, in my notes I have the first* use of the 8000 lb HC by a Halifax squadron in late-1942 (the 8000 lb HC was not available for operations until September). But I did not record the Squadron number.

*I have run across references that say the Lancaster was the first to use the 8000 lb HC in April 1943, but this is incorrect (I think).

Hope this helps.

 

[33k in the air]

Hey 33k in the air,

Sorry, but no. In my notes I list the 4000 lb HC being deployed to Halifax squadrons operating out of No.42 Base (RAF Elvington, Melbourne, and Pocklington) and out of Tholthorpe, but I did not record any Squadron numbers.

I have the 4000 lb HC being employed against Duisburg in the April 1943 raids, by the Halifax squadron operating out of Tholthorpe

Also, in my notes I have the first* use of the 8000 lb HC by a Halifax squadron in late-1942 (the 8000 lb HC was not available for operations until September). But I did not record the Squadron number.

*I have run across references that say the Lancaster was the first to use the 8000 lb HC in April 1943, but this is incorrect (I think).

Hope this helps.

That does help, since it is straightforward enough to look up the airbase and find the squadrons which were stationed there during the course of the war.

According to The Bomber Command Handbook 1939–1945 by Jonathan Falconer:

Elvington was home to 77 Squadron (Oct. 1942-May 1944), 346 Squadron (May 1944-Oct. 1945), and 347 Squadron (June 1944-Oct. 1945)
Melbourne was home to 10 Squadron (Aug. 1942-Aug. 1945)
Pocklington was home to 405 Squadron (June 1941-Aug. 1942) and 102 Squadron (Aug. 1942-Sept. 1945).
Tholthorpe was home to 77 Squadron (Aug.-Dec. 1940), 434 Squadron (June-Dec. 1943), 431 Squadron (July-Dec. 1943), 420 Squadron (Dec. 1943-June 1945), and 425 Squadron (Dec. 1943-June 1945).

Of these squadrons, here's what I've found in regards to the squadron ORB listing bomb load details:

10 Squadron: Sept. 1942 onward
77 Squadron: Jan. 1942 onward
102 Squadron: Apr. 1944 onward
405 Squadron: consistently from June 1942 onward (with the exception of Feb. 1943, for which loads are not listed)
420 Squadron: from Apr. 1942 onward (with the exception of the months of June and July of 1943, and Feb. 1944)
425 Squadron: from Feb. 1943 onward (with the exception of the months of Feb and March 1944)

Neither 346 or 347 Squadrons appear to have bomb load details stated in their ORBs based on spot checks. I haven't really looked through 431 and 434 Squadron ORBs yet.

It would appear 10, 77, and 102 Squadrons are promising in terms of heavier bomb use by the Halifax. As it happens, all three were already on my list of squadrons to go through. I'll probably bump up 77 Squadron in the priority list, since it'll also provide some Whitley bomb loads as well.

I'm about to embark on 106 Squadron (Lancaster loads from July 1942 onward).

 

[33k in the air]

Just came across this for 106 Squadron:

28 August 1942: Lancaster L5574 was dispatched to bomb Nuremberg with a bomb load of 1 x 8,000-lb HC bomb.

(The aircraft was attacked by a night fighter, which caused damage that forced the bomber to abandon the mission. The bomb was dropped over Damstadt.)

 

[nuuumannn]

Anyone know what other Halifax-equipped squadrons dropped the 4,000-lb or 8,000-lb on a regular or semi-regular basis?

Unfortunately I don't have a comprehensive list of the units that did either, just that 76 Sqn was the first Halifax unit to drop the bomb.

 

[ThomasP]

My notes say L5574 was a Fairey Battle, is this incorrect?

 

[33k in the air]

My notes say L5574 was a Fairey Battle, is this incorrect?

Just double checked, and the ORB does list L5574 as the serial number of the Lancaster. My first thought was perhaps it's a type in the ORB, but that same number was listed on an Aug. 27th mission. But then, L5574 does not fall within Lancaster serial numbers as listed in Richard Mark's Avro Lancaster, which has L series numbers starting at L7527.

Maybe it is a typo after all and it's supposed to be R5574? That would fall within Lancaster serial number runs.

 

[33k in the air]

Bomb load follow-up:

I checked 77 Squadron for 1943 and into 1944, but no bomb heavier than 2,000 lbs was carried. 10 Squadron didn't carry anything larger than 2,000 lbs from Sept. through Dec. 1942.

I'm having not having much luck finding Halifax aircraft carrying 4,000 lb or 8,000 lb bombs. :/

 

[Greyman]

For what its worth, figures I have are:

Lancaster (March 1942 to March 1945)
4000 lb HC = 23.1% of all tonnage dropped
8000 lb = 0.7% of all tonnage dropped

Halifax (March 1941 to March 1945)
4000 lb HC = 0.4% of all tonnage dropped
8000 lb = less than 0.1% of all tonnage dropped

Stirling (February 1941 to March 1945)
4000 lb HC = no entry
8000 lb = no entry

Mosquito (May 1942 to March 1945) tactical sorties not included
4000 lb HC = 52.1% of all tonnage dropped
8000 lb = no entry