glennasher
Senior Airman
I am also too big for my wingspan, and I don't fly well, either. I used to be a U-2, now I'm more like the Stirling............
Short Stirling
- Thread starter Acheron
- Start date
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Damn it, and I thought what was happening to me was my wingspan was shrinking (said like George Costanza = SHRINKAGE)! <--Requires previous viewing of a particular Seinfield episode...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
"But the water was COLD!!"
Like a frightened turtle
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Admiral Beez
Major
This thread reminded me of the Hanley Page bombers with folding wings, presumably to facilitate ground handling and hangar use.i wouldn't believe everything you read on the internetThere is quite a bit on this subject floating around on the net, but a few facts. The wingspan restriction was not specifically about RAF hangars.
First Commercial Airplane with Folding Wings, Boeing's 777X Took Its Maiden Flight
With its maiden flight, Boeing's 777X with its folding wing tips ushered in a new era for commercial aviation.
Admiral Beez
Major
What about using the Sterling's short wingspan's low attitude performance for RAF Coastal Command?
Shortround6
Major General
The Stirling did not cruise well.
It had a much shorter range carrying the same bomb load as the Halifax or the Lancaster.
In fact with a modest bomb load (close to a Wellington?) it didn't really go much further. Certainly not enough the justify the cost of the airframe and the fuel burn per mission.
Many AS aircraft flew hundreds of missions without dropping one bomb in anger.
Somewhere around here there are some Data sheets for some of these bombers.
At short distances the Stirling could get a lot of bombs off the ground. It could hold more paratroopers. It could tow gliders.
The Stirling had both factories hit by bombs during the Blitz and that delayed production and introduction for a number of months so it didn't really beat the other big bomber into service by as much as was hoped. The raid in the opening days of the BoB is supposed to have set back production by up to a year and the raid/s during Easter week of 1941 at Belfast caused a major disruption in the transfer of production from the original factory. Two (?) other factories had been brought into the production scheme well before the BoB started but equipping shadow factories was taking a long time (for a number of industries).
One or two squadrons had gotten their first few planes but the raids on the factories meant that additional squadrons were months behind the planned issue of aircraft.
By the time you get very many Stirling's available from BC requirements most of the CC squadrons were pretty well supplied with other types (Wellingtons, Whitleys, and some of the US aircraft. )
Admiral Beez
Major
And Short's own Sunderland.
Shortround6
Major General
Somewhere there were some data sheets showing the range with something like 1500lbs of bomb load for some of the twins and something not far off for the Stirling.
1500lbs was a decent bomb load (six 250lb AS bombs) considering the range/endurance and the Stirling, while it would fly a few hundred miles further, didn't really show a large improvement.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Although such a bomb load may allow for installing longer range tanks in the bomb bay with the AS bombs/depth charges in the wing cells. In a variant built for the maritime role rather than switching ex bomber airframes. That may also let the Hercules version be changed to one more appropriate to the maritime task too. Possibly more MkV than MkIII in style.
The problem with the Stirling bomb bay is its construction as part of the airframe. It was divided longitudinally by two structural members. The result was 3 long, narrow and not very deep channels in which the bombs were hung. That limited the size of the bombs that could be carried. OK for pre-war weapons but not for the 4,000lb Cookie and other larger weapons.
You will find drawings of the fuselage construction here.
Stirling Construction Drawings and Interior Photo’s
I was sent these drawings a few years back by Greg “Biffer” Harrison. They make interesting viewing and give a good idea of the internal construction and layout of the Stirling. I have …
218squadron.wordpress.com
And a photo of it
So any overload fuel tanks fitted there are going to have to be long, narrow and segmented to avoid CoG problems as they are emptied.
While it would take the 100lb AS bomb of the early war period, it would have to await the 250lb Mk.VIII Airborne Depth Charge introduced to service in 1942. I very much doubt that the earlier Mk.VII Airborne Depth Charge (basically a Naval depth charge with nose and tail fairings and available from 1941) would fit.
The only way round this would be a complete redesign of the entire fuselage.
B-17 Flying Fortress Mk.I (7 aircraft based on the B-17C model) became available to Coastal Command in Jan 1942 and 220 squadron flew its first operational sortie with them on 26 April. Fortress IIA aircraft (based on the B-17E model) began to be delivered in March 1942 and reached 220 squadron in July at which point 206 also began conversion to the type. Those two squadrons were the principal CC users through to 1944/45 when they converted to Liberators.
120 squadron received the first CC Liberators in June 1941.There were only 10 Liberator GR.Mk.I conversions for CC in 1941 (based on LB.30B / B-24A airframes). These were followed by another 10 or 11 GR.Mk.II in 1942 (based on LB.30 airframes). 160 squadron used its Liberator B.II in the GR role for about a month in April 1942 before moving to the Middle East.
Liberator GR.Mk.III (based on the B-24D airframe) began to arrive in April 1942 with operations on them starting at the end of June 1942 with 120 squadron and 224 squadron in July.
Only about 70 Liberator GR.III/IIIa/V were received in 1942 with some being used for training to allow future expansion of the Liberator force.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 922
- Sep 30, 2021
Bomber Command had the formula that the Lancaster needed track miles divided by 0.95 + 200 gallons of fuel, the Merlin Halifax track miles/0.82 + 200 gallons, the Hercules Halifax track miles/0.8 + 200 gallons, Stirling track miles/0.75 + 300 gallons.
800 track miles weight available for bomb load and window, Lancaster 17,200 pounds, Merlin Halifax 11,800 pounds, Hercules Halifax 13,360 pounds, Stirling 10,457 pounds.
1,400 track miles weight available for bomb load and window, Lancaster 12,620 pounds, Merlin Halifax 6,600 pounds, Hercules Halifax 7,480 pounds, Stirling 4,695 pounds.
The 1941 RAF Aircraft performance report has the Stirling range at 915 miles with 14,000 pounds of bombs, maximum fuel of 2,425 gallons gives 2,400 miles with 3,500 pounds of bombs at 200 mph, 2,500 miles at 175 mph.
Wellington Ic 1,600 miles with 2,800 pounds of bombs and 750 gallons of fuel, 2,255 miles with 500 pounds and 1,030 gallons of fuel, at 195 mph.
Whitley V 1,345 miles with 4,850 pounds of bombs and 705 gallons of fuel, 1,630 miles with 3,750 pounds of bombs and 837 gallons of fuel at 175 mph.
Sunderland I 2,530 miles with 2,000 pounds of bombs and 2,034 gallons of fuel at 141 mph.
All the above with a 50 minute allowance.
So in theory bomb bay tanks, weighing around 1,500 pounds full would add around 200 gallons of fuel to the Stirling, and over 200 miles to its range, slightly superior to the Sunderland. The Stirling bomb bay could carry the 2,000 pound SAP bomb and it seems the 2,000 pound HC and GP bombs given it is reported as dropping 4 GP, 502 AP and 2,359 HC 2,000 pound bombs.
Stirling production began in May, Halifax in October and Manchester in September 1940. The Rochester Stirling production line was raided in August 1940 as was the second line in Belfast, between them 11 bombers on the production lines were destroyed. Rochester built 9 Stirlings May to October 1940 then none for two months, Belfast began production in November, while the third line at Austin started in March 1941. The Rochester line produced 4 Stirlings in July 1940, it took until September 1941 before that was exceeded, 6 that month, the peak monthly production was 27 in January 1944, Belfast managed 40 in June 1943 then 41 in September. Austin peaked at 32 in April 1943.
Rochester ended production in September and Austin in October 1944, Belfast ceased bomber production in January 1944, mark IV in August 1945, mark V in January 1946. The lines were never very large, producing 154 Stirlings in 1941, versus 162 Halifax and 166 Manchester plus 18 Lancaster that year. Not sure if the Stirling ever dropped parachute troops.
The British government decided to take over Shorts during the war.
201st a/c, man hours estimate, Lancaster 74,319, Halifax 98,246, Stirling 129,944.
June 1941 proposed orders, 400 Lancaster at 44,250 pounds each, 250 Halifax at 43,750 pounds each, 320 Stirling at 52,300 pounds each, 45 Sunderland at 57,270 pounds each, 433 Wellington at 27,700 pounds each. As a replacement for the Sunderland the Stirling should be cheaper and slightly longer ranged.
800 track miles weight available for bomb load and window, Lancaster 17,200 pounds, Merlin Halifax 11,800 pounds, Hercules Halifax 13,360 pounds, Stirling 10,457 pounds.
1,400 track miles weight available for bomb load and window, Lancaster 12,620 pounds, Merlin Halifax 6,600 pounds, Hercules Halifax 7,480 pounds, Stirling 4,695 pounds.
The 1941 RAF Aircraft performance report has the Stirling range at 915 miles with 14,000 pounds of bombs, maximum fuel of 2,425 gallons gives 2,400 miles with 3,500 pounds of bombs at 200 mph, 2,500 miles at 175 mph.
Wellington Ic 1,600 miles with 2,800 pounds of bombs and 750 gallons of fuel, 2,255 miles with 500 pounds and 1,030 gallons of fuel, at 195 mph.
Whitley V 1,345 miles with 4,850 pounds of bombs and 705 gallons of fuel, 1,630 miles with 3,750 pounds of bombs and 837 gallons of fuel at 175 mph.
Sunderland I 2,530 miles with 2,000 pounds of bombs and 2,034 gallons of fuel at 141 mph.
All the above with a 50 minute allowance.
So in theory bomb bay tanks, weighing around 1,500 pounds full would add around 200 gallons of fuel to the Stirling, and over 200 miles to its range, slightly superior to the Sunderland. The Stirling bomb bay could carry the 2,000 pound SAP bomb and it seems the 2,000 pound HC and GP bombs given it is reported as dropping 4 GP, 502 AP and 2,359 HC 2,000 pound bombs.
Stirling production began in May, Halifax in October and Manchester in September 1940. The Rochester Stirling production line was raided in August 1940 as was the second line in Belfast, between them 11 bombers on the production lines were destroyed. Rochester built 9 Stirlings May to October 1940 then none for two months, Belfast began production in November, while the third line at Austin started in March 1941. The Rochester line produced 4 Stirlings in July 1940, it took until September 1941 before that was exceeded, 6 that month, the peak monthly production was 27 in January 1944, Belfast managed 40 in June 1943 then 41 in September. Austin peaked at 32 in April 1943.
Rochester ended production in September and Austin in October 1944, Belfast ceased bomber production in January 1944, mark IV in August 1945, mark V in January 1946. The lines were never very large, producing 154 Stirlings in 1941, versus 162 Halifax and 166 Manchester plus 18 Lancaster that year. Not sure if the Stirling ever dropped parachute troops.
The British government decided to take over Shorts during the war.
201st a/c, man hours estimate, Lancaster 74,319, Halifax 98,246, Stirling 129,944.
June 1941 proposed orders, 400 Lancaster at 44,250 pounds each, 250 Halifax at 43,750 pounds each, 320 Stirling at 52,300 pounds each, 45 Sunderland at 57,270 pounds each, 433 Wellington at 27,700 pounds each. As a replacement for the Sunderland the Stirling should be cheaper and slightly longer ranged.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
They dropped paratroopers near the Caen and Orne canal bridges on D-Day and again during Market Garden, at Arnhem.
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
as a "snap shot" the May 30/31s 1942 1000 bomber raid on Cologne used
88..............Short Stirlings
131...........Halifaxes
73............ Lancasters
46............ Manchesters
I am sure that some additional Stirling's were somewhere in the system but my point was that due to bombing and delayed start of Stirling operations there is no surplus of Stirlings to transfer to Coastal Command until better/more suitable aircraft wound up being available anyway.
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you
Very informative.
Comparing the Whitley to the Stirling the Whitley will carry about the same amount of bombs (not going to argue about 250lbs out of 3500-3750lbs) about 2/3s as far but uses just over 1/3 the fuel.
The Wellington can carry about 80% of the bombs about 2/3s as far as the Stirling but uses a bit less fuel than the Whitley.
In 1941 the Wellington MK III was beginning to show up which should show an increase in payload although the fuel burn is going to go up.
Please note that even 1600 miles at around 200mph is a mission length of 8 hours. With more operational knowledge (hindsight) they restricted the the Liberator's to about 12 hours(?) due to crew fatigue.
The twins didn't have the facilities for relieve aircrew, The Stirling may have been debatable (?) if it could have been fitted. Every extra crewman is 200lbs of fuel you don't carry.
The Sunderland could carry extra crew and with a galley the provision of at least hot tea to go with the sandwiches doesn't seem unreasonable? Or it is a fire hazard in flight?
Very informative.
Comparing the Whitley to the Stirling the Whitley will carry about the same amount of bombs (not going to argue about 250lbs out of 3500-3750lbs) about 2/3s as far but uses just over 1/3 the fuel.
The Wellington can carry about 80% of the bombs about 2/3s as far as the Stirling but uses a bit less fuel than the Whitley.
In 1941 the Wellington MK III was beginning to show up which should show an increase in payload although the fuel burn is going to go up.
Please note that even 1600 miles at around 200mph is a mission length of 8 hours. With more operational knowledge (hindsight) they restricted the the Liberator's to about 12 hours(?) due to crew fatigue.
The twins didn't have the facilities for relieve aircrew, The Stirling may have been debatable (?) if it could have been fitted. Every extra crewman is 200lbs of fuel you don't carry.
The Sunderland could carry extra crew and with a galley the provision of at least hot tea to go with the sandwiches doesn't seem unreasonable? Or it is a fire hazard in flight?
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
The Catalina had hot-plate equipped galleys, so clearly it was possible given sensible precautions, no?
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