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Really enjoy talking WWII airplanes with you guys, where else can I find anybody who likes this subject.I doubt very much you've "struck a nerve" here, you've just run across the most knowledgeable group of guys on the subject at hand, namely WWII aviation. Sure is sounds plausible a P-39N could have been manufactured in December '42 and been in action the same month. What you'll learn here is not what is plausible, but what actually happened. Logistics dictates ( to me at least ) the P-39N could not have made it to any combat zone in two weeks time, I've learned that from reading many threads on this forum by posters with far more knowledge and source document resources than I can imagine.
SR6 and others have continually tried to explain 2S/2S superchargers v. 1S/1S etc. not to mention crankshaft differences etc. etc. A person can learn a lot from these guys, you just have to be humble enough to realize that sometimes you may have to pony up with valid references to make your point.
Not to single any one poster out, but for example, when drgondog posts, read carefully and take it to the bank that what he says is based in fact. Not coffee table history book "accepted" versions of events, but dyed in the wool, right from the source documentation and education. And that's just the tip of the ice cube, I could name almost a dozen more posters that have knowledge and source material to back up what they say.
So when you start to rewrite history, you best have source documentation ( and a fair amount of it ) to back up what you're trying to say. Everyone here is always open to new interpretations or new discoveries of data, no one is so hidebound in their beliefs that they close their eyes to new information. But the BS meter is finely tuned and will be used immediately when needed.
I cite the example of your statements about the air war being over by March '44, it may sound like I'm nit picking one point, but it's a very important point. You won't find many here that will agree with that for a reason i.e. it's false. When you attach that type of assertion, it calls into question your entire argument, firmly sticking to such an assertion only lowers your credence going forward. One might posit that it would have been better to ask why many here think that statement is false, and ask them to cite sources.
Pardon the long post, as I said, you seem a well read intelligent bloke and you've come to the right place for information and the exchange of same, I just hope you take this to heart and stick around as I think you could contribute to the group here.
Cheers
Let me try and explain this again......................... Hope this helps.
No it couldn'tEach of us can then answer the original question, could the P-39 handle the Zero or was it training/performance.
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I was mostly concerned with the P-39, P-38, P-47 and P-51, but I'll stand by my mean/average fuel.It doesn't because in polite terminology it is so much horse pucky.
Just starting with the US P-36 and P-40 tests we find the P-36 tests described as full fuel and oil, which is a bit disingenuous as on a P-36 "full" fuel did NOT include the tank behind the pilot. That was the overload or ferry tank. Filling it put the aircraft over gross weight and imposed restrictions on flight maneuvers.
Some of the P-40 tests don't describe either fuel state or even the weight of the aircraft. BTW using the date of a test to judge when a plane went into service is dicey at best, one "test" of the XP-40 was dated July 28, 1941 which is about the time the P-40D went into production.
later P-40 tests give test weights but often do not give fuel or ammo state which leaves one guessing, especially when on test of a P-40E gives a weigh of 8011lbs and another test says 8033lbs (propeller test) full fuel and oil, six guns fitted but no ammo and no ballast.
Now this gets weird as the manual for the P-40D/E says the gross weight for the E is 8011lbs with 423lbs of ammo and full internal fuel. Fuel load was given as 720lbs in the manual (design load was only 37 gallons in the rear tank. the extra 25.5 gallons, the belly tank and even an extra 460 rounds of ammo (138lbs) and six 20lb bombs all get listed under alternate max loads. Of course the manual was last revised in Sept of 1941 so weights can differ between planned and actual production aircraft.
A 1944 test of the P-40N-5 was done at 8300lbs and included 157 gallons of fuel and ballast in place of ammunition.
There certainly doesn't seem to be any clear or consistent pattern to the condition of US planes tested let alone planes from other countries.
BTW one P-38G test was done with only 50 rounds for the cannon, only two .50 cal machine guns with 200rpg and 180 gallons of fuel.
They got that sucker up to 25,000ft in 7.36 minutes but I have no idea what it actually proves.
They got that sucker up to 25,000ft in 7.36 minutes but I have no idea what it actually proves.
What you consistently evade with your facts is that AAF replaced P-39s of every type as fast as they could - with P-40, P-38, P-51 and shuffled them off to Training Command, The French and Italian and Russian AF in early 1944.Really enjoy talking WWII airplanes with you guys, where else can I find anybody who likes this subject.
All I'm saying is I prefer the facts to heresay. Before late 2012 we all had to take all the heresay as fact. After all the data was put online by wwiiaircraftperformance.org we can compare directly every P-39 model against any other plane (except Russian) and see for ourselves. These are the original source documents, the actual government/military tests. Not some numbers in a coffee table book that seldom match the actual tests. Each of us can then answer the original question, could the P-39 handle the Zero or was it training/performance.
And google N. G. Goludnikov if you want some Russian heresay.
I always thought that washout was essential and that without it a plane would stall without warning, does 2 deg constant incidence fulfil the same function in some way or did the P39 have another trick in the box?Root: NACA 0015, tip: NACA 23009, no washout (2 deg constant incindence).
I always thought that washout was essential and that without it a plane would stall without warning, does 2 deg constant incidence fulfil the same function in some way or did the P39 have another trick in the box?
Bejabers, I remembered something that was correct, it's a miracleThe AHT bible at pg. 203-204 notes that stall behavoir of the P-39 was not favorable - there was no warning, no tail buffeting prior the stall. High-speed stall was also tricky business.
Out of the first 3 P-47 tests on WWII Aircraft Performance 2 have 6 guns installed, ammo and fuel state not given, 3rd has a very similar weight (down 5lbs) but 8 guns.I was mostly concerned with the P-39, P-38, P-47 and P-51, but I'll stand by my mean/average fuel.
That manual weight of 8011# was for the D, two more machine guns for the E would get it up to 8400#.
I don't think other countries used the mean/average fuel, they mostly just listed takeoff weight.
In wwiiaircraftperformance, the gross weights listed on the test documents show "mean fuel" or average fuel available during the test.
Even the Wiki article on the P 39 discusses stability problems with the P 39 which Bell couldn't replicate, well they couldn't replicate until they removed ballast that simulated ammunition, which seems to show that firing the guns was not recommended by the manufacturer.
What is AHT please?The AHT bible at pg. 203-204 notes that stall behavoir of the P-39 was not favorable - there was no warning, no tail buffeting prior the stall. High-speed stall was also tricky business.
No, you prefer your fanboy obsessions over the experience of the people who actually had dealings with these aircraft in WW2 and everyone who has researched them in the decades since WW2. Just like all the Wehraboos who insist the Germans could have won the war if only they built Napkinwaffe jets in 1941 or got Hugo Boss to make them a sharper-looking uniform.All I'm saying is I prefer the facts to heresay. .
What is AHT please?
Curtiss' high production of simple, robust but obsolescent under-performers.