Not too bad at all Glenn, one additional change to the badge, info provided to me was the 'L' badge is more likely yellow edged in Black, with the 'England' portion in Green....will find that detail for you....
Siegfried Freytag
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Hi to everybody. I'm new on the forum, but very happy to see a thread about Mr Freytag!
I'd add some remarks, and hope for corrections if I'm wrong!
Mr Freytag is supposed to have scored 55 victories when he became staffelkapitan of the 1/JG 77 in july 42. He obtained the knight's cross in the same month. If this rudder marks 57 victories, at least two of them should depict english markings, don't you think? Because he only had one victory when he went to Russia, so it would have been included in the "40" mark. Then, add 15 russian marks, and 2 english marks...
I wonder if this rudder (on the pic) is a usable one..;It seems to me it's a used rudder, I'm not sure it could have been used once more on an aircraft. I know Mr freytag was shot down near the Valletta harbour, maybe it's the rudder of its aircraft? maybe it's not the rudder of one of its aircraft at all...?
As for the symbol (the letter "L" with the british map), it seems to me it's the emblem of the 1st gruppe, and the emblem of the 1st staffel was a small "legion kondor" emblem... Is there any chance to be sure of the pic given by Wayne is about Mr Freytag?
The profile given by Glenn is amazing. As for the camo, I guess it was RLM 74/75/76 as it was for Heinz Bar at the same times, with yellow on the lower cowling.
You're right FalkeEinz, Mr Freytag is even the character of a book! Freiberg, in Steinhoff's book, is likely to be Freytag, as Steinhoff changed quite all names. But this Freiberg is shot down by spitfires in the book, when Mr freytag was shot two days later by P38. As for drinking, a lot of german pilots drank a lot, especially in those difficult times...But Mr freytag was for sure a "party guy", he was well known for his ability to party! At the same period, Muchenberg was killed, and Bar was sent home for nervous breakdown (or "cowardice", as the fat chief of Luftwaffe said). Mr Freytag for sure was shot down and wounded in july 1943, and didn't come back into action before april 1944...9 or 10 months without flying is a long time, especially in those times when good pilots were badly needed...Tough times for the luftwaffe...
I'd add some remarks, and hope for corrections if I'm wrong!
Mr Freytag is supposed to have scored 55 victories when he became staffelkapitan of the 1/JG 77 in july 42. He obtained the knight's cross in the same month. If this rudder marks 57 victories, at least two of them should depict english markings, don't you think? Because he only had one victory when he went to Russia, so it would have been included in the "40" mark. Then, add 15 russian marks, and 2 english marks...
I wonder if this rudder (on the pic) is a usable one..;It seems to me it's a used rudder, I'm not sure it could have been used once more on an aircraft. I know Mr freytag was shot down near the Valletta harbour, maybe it's the rudder of its aircraft? maybe it's not the rudder of one of its aircraft at all...?
As for the symbol (the letter "L" with the british map), it seems to me it's the emblem of the 1st gruppe, and the emblem of the 1st staffel was a small "legion kondor" emblem... Is there any chance to be sure of the pic given by Wayne is about Mr Freytag?
The profile given by Glenn is amazing. As for the camo, I guess it was RLM 74/75/76 as it was for Heinz Bar at the same times, with yellow on the lower cowling.
You're right FalkeEinz, Mr Freytag is even the character of a book! Freiberg, in Steinhoff's book, is likely to be Freytag, as Steinhoff changed quite all names. But this Freiberg is shot down by spitfires in the book, when Mr freytag was shot two days later by P38. As for drinking, a lot of german pilots drank a lot, especially in those difficult times...But Mr freytag was for sure a "party guy", he was well known for his ability to party! At the same period, Muchenberg was killed, and Bar was sent home for nervous breakdown (or "cowardice", as the fat chief of Luftwaffe said). Mr Freytag for sure was shot down and wounded in july 1943, and didn't come back into action before april 1944...9 or 10 months without flying is a long time, especially in those times when good pilots were badly needed...Tough times for the luftwaffe...
And I forgot about asking if somebody still has a copy of "fighters over Tunisia", of Christopher F. Shores and Hans Ring. There is a pic of Mr Freytag in this book, maybe with stab II/JG77 aircraft in Tunisia...I have lost my own copy, and understood there is no more available...
Welcome Siggi
Freytag had 57 victories when he became Staffel Kapitan of 1/JG77, his 57th on 23/6/42 while still on the russian front with 6/JG77, soon afterI/JG77 was transferred to the MTO.
Victories 41 through 57 were all scored on the russian front, all being russian victories as shown by the red stars above the white victory bars.
His 58th and 59th were Spitfires on 10th July so from this point on British roundels would appear above the bars, in fact through to his 78th victory on 17th Oct all were Spitfires with 1 exception, 67 a Hurricane on 12th August.
The Rudder most definitely belongs to Freytag, the 'L' is the Gruppe emblem, not carried on all aircraft and yes the Legion Condor 'X' in a circle was for the 1st Staffel...also not carried on all aircraft.
The rudder pic was taken in the Med theatre, why it is detached from his aircraft is unknown and speculated on in above post.
Freytag had 57 victories when he became Staffel Kapitan of 1/JG77, his 57th on 23/6/42 while still on the russian front with 6/JG77, soon afterI/JG77 was transferred to the MTO.
Victories 41 through 57 were all scored on the russian front, all being russian victories as shown by the red stars above the white victory bars.
His 58th and 59th were Spitfires on 10th July so from this point on British roundels would appear above the bars, in fact through to his 78th victory on 17th Oct all were Spitfires with 1 exception, 67 a Hurricane on 12th August.
The Rudder most definitely belongs to Freytag, the 'L' is the Gruppe emblem, not carried on all aircraft and yes the Legion Condor 'X' in a circle was for the 1st Staffel...also not carried on all aircraft.
The rudder pic was taken in the Med theatre, why it is detached from his aircraft is unknown and speculated on in above post.
Thanks Wayne for those corrections and answer!
I had no data for those last victories in june 42, I have only the 53rd...
And since the 2 spitfires he claimed before July the 10th weren't confirmed, it confirms your numbers!
I noticed you're from Adelaide, very nice place! i'm surfing a bit (I surfed more, when I was younger...) and Australia is a really cool, but very big place! I mean, the 0.01% of australia I saw!
I noticed some of you are able to consult the Prien's book. Maybe you're able to know if Mr Freytag began the war in Poland in 39 as a NCO, or if he began in Norway in summer 40 as a leutnant...
As for the red heart emblem, Wayne will surely confirm (or not!) that it was used by JG 77 only in late 43 or early 44 as a tribute to Munchenberg who was KIA in North Africa in 43.
I had no data for those last victories in june 42, I have only the 53rd...
And since the 2 spitfires he claimed before July the 10th weren't confirmed, it confirms your numbers!
I noticed you're from Adelaide, very nice place! i'm surfing a bit (I surfed more, when I was younger...) and Australia is a really cool, but very big place! I mean, the 0.01% of australia I saw!
I noticed some of you are able to consult the Prien's book. Maybe you're able to know if Mr Freytag began the war in Poland in 39 as a NCO, or if he began in Norway in summer 40 as a leutnant...
As for the red heart emblem, Wayne will surely confirm (or not!) that it was used by JG 77 only in late 43 or early 44 as a tribute to Munchenberg who was KIA in North Africa in 43.
No problem!
Yeah I'm happy to live here, especially in Adelaide!
Not sure where he started...his first victory was in Norway.
Yes the New emblem was a tribute to Muncheberg.
Glenn Sprouse
Airman
Greetings everyone, and welcome Siggi:
Thanks for the comments everyone! All the information going back and forth is a great help.
Also, thanks for the compliments Siggi and everyone else who commented on the profile. I made it by simply coloring a public domain side view drawing with a program called Paint Shop Pro. It is a 74/75/76 cammo that I got the RBG numbers from one of the many discussion sites on Luftwaffe cammo. I just clicked and filled in the appropriate colors with a little airbrush work. I actually didn't think it would turn out that good. The numbers and the cross are actually from a German Aircraft lettering font that I downloaded. The fonts even included the cross, but not a cross that I could place under the wing, which is why there is none in my profile. She schwasticka is done by hand, which is why it might be a little out of proportion if you look closely. Again, thanks for the compliments.
Hey Wayne! I have never seen the LG1 logo in yellow and green before. That sounds interesting. The logo I used was based on all the decals of the LG1 badge that I have in my posession, and they are all in white and red. The decals shouldn't be too hard to change though.
Again, thanks for the imput everyone!
Glenn
Thanks for the comments everyone! All the information going back and forth is a great help.
Also, thanks for the compliments Siggi and everyone else who commented on the profile. I made it by simply coloring a public domain side view drawing with a program called Paint Shop Pro. It is a 74/75/76 cammo that I got the RBG numbers from one of the many discussion sites on Luftwaffe cammo. I just clicked and filled in the appropriate colors with a little airbrush work. I actually didn't think it would turn out that good. The numbers and the cross are actually from a German Aircraft lettering font that I downloaded. The fonts even included the cross, but not a cross that I could place under the wing, which is why there is none in my profile. She schwasticka is done by hand, which is why it might be a little out of proportion if you look closely. Again, thanks for the compliments.
Hey Wayne! I have never seen the LG1 logo in yellow and green before. That sounds interesting. The logo I used was based on all the decals of the LG1 badge that I have in my posession, and they are all in white and red. The decals shouldn't be too hard to change though.
Again, thanks for the imput everyone!
Glenn
Hi Glenn,
have attached a PDF with the revised emblem (provided to me which I think came from one of the JG 77 unit histories) and 2 more images of Bf109F's with the emblem, while I can't confirm the Red to Green for the England part of the emblem...if you look closely at the Fuel triangles on both 109's...they are Yellow edged in white...the 'L' matches the tonal value of the Yellow rather than White.....so that I believe, so the Green could well be correct too!
have attached a PDF with the revised emblem (provided to me which I think came from one of the JG 77 unit histories) and 2 more images of Bf109F's with the emblem, while I can't confirm the Red to Green for the England part of the emblem...if you look closely at the Fuel triangles on both 109's...they are Yellow edged in white...the 'L' matches the tonal value of the Yellow rather than White.....so that I believe, so the Green could well be correct too!
Another great prfile, though...? i'll take it, and look for some 109G model in 1/48 to try it!
It seems that Siegfried Freytag was shot down on July the 27th 1942 over Malta, and the story said he was rescued by a Do24 close to the Valetta harbor, under the nose of english rescue boats...This same 07/27, it seems that Georges Screwball Beurling was on a rampage against italian and german aircraft. Could it be Beurling the pilot who shot Mr Freytag down that particular day? A battle of great fighter pilot it would have been, when you know that Beurling already shot two great italian pilots, and even Preu, a very good german fighter pilot himself...
It seems that Siegfried Freytag was shot down on July the 27th 1942 over Malta, and the story said he was rescued by a Do24 close to the Valetta harbor, under the nose of english rescue boats...This same 07/27, it seems that Georges Screwball Beurling was on a rampage against italian and german aircraft. Could it be Beurling the pilot who shot Mr Freytag down that particular day? A battle of great fighter pilot it would have been, when you know that Beurling already shot two great italian pilots, and even Preu, a very good german fighter pilot himself...
Dear Wayne
I must admit I still have a problem with the rudder, and the tally of Freytag at the end of his russian campaign...
A lot of sources (including yourself, and you convinced me) said that Freytag had 57 victories at the time. One of this victory is supposed to have been scored in Norway against a RAF plane, so I guess it explains one of the cocard on the rudder. A lot of sources I'm talking about are saying that all those victories were scored in Russia...
But some of those very sources are saying that Freytag had only 49 confirmed victories when he was awarded the knight's cross, 03/07/1942...
So how come this rudder could show the knight's cross with 57 victories, but only russian victories ...I guess it should have been 49 victories to be shown...
Were those 57 victories really confirmed at the beginning of July? Or was it usual to depict even un-confirmed victories...?
Sorry to bother you with "amateur" questions...
I must admit I still have a problem with the rudder, and the tally of Freytag at the end of his russian campaign...
A lot of sources (including yourself, and you convinced me) said that Freytag had 57 victories at the time. One of this victory is supposed to have been scored in Norway against a RAF plane, so I guess it explains one of the cocard on the rudder. A lot of sources I'm talking about are saying that all those victories were scored in Russia...
But some of those very sources are saying that Freytag had only 49 confirmed victories when he was awarded the knight's cross, 03/07/1942...
So how come this rudder could show the knight's cross with 57 victories, but only russian victories ...I guess it should have been 49 victories to be shown...
Were those 57 victories really confirmed at the beginning of July? Or was it usual to depict even un-confirmed victories...?
Sorry to bother you with "amateur" questions...
Glenn Sprouse
Airman
Thanks for the info Wayne. It will not be too hard to change the colors on the decal so I'll go with the yellow and green.
Hey Siggi, that is interesting... One would have to look at Beurling's claims for the period and see if he was up on the same day as Freytag, if he made a claim for that day and that period of time, and if the claim was a Me.109. I'll have to look around at my research and see if it is possible. However, I'm sure someone has already done that somewhere, but I'll still give it a look.
Thanks guys.
Have some more info for ya Siggi.....one problem...left it at work! so will post up answers to your recent questions on Monday.
Scratch the 1 victory in Norway!
Scratch the 1 victory in Norway!
Yes, it could be great to find out, but trouble is we are not sure of the exact days, as usual...
It could have been the 25, the 26 for Freytag...Or another pilot, since we do not have the names, only the type of aircraft, and geographical indications aren't that clear ("off Comiso"...). We do have BTW the exact dates for Beurling.
As faith had it, it seems Siegfried Freytag shot down a spit in sept 44, flown by Mc Leod, who was another "star of Malta" in 42...They met once again two years later, above northern Europe this time...
@Wayne
Wow, can't wait for your news!
It could have been the 25, the 26 for Freytag...Or another pilot, since we do not have the names, only the type of aircraft, and geographical indications aren't that clear ("off Comiso"...). We do have BTW the exact dates for Beurling.
As faith had it, it seems Siegfried Freytag shot down a spit in sept 44, flown by Mc Leod, who was another "star of Malta" in 42...They met once again two years later, above northern Europe this time...
@Wayne
Wow, can't wait for your news!
Dear Wayne
I must admit I still have a problem with the rudder, and the tally of Freytag at the end of his russian campaign...
A lot of sources (including yourself, and you convinced me) said that Freytag had 57 victories at the time. One of this victory is supposed to have been scored in Norway against a RAF plane, so I guess it explains one of the cocard on the rudder. A lot of sources I'm talking about are saying that all those victories were scored in Russia...
But some of those very sources are saying that Freytag had only 49 confirmed victories when he was awarded the knight's cross, 03/07/1942...
So how come this rudder could show the knight's cross with 57 victories, but only russian victories ...I guess it should have been 49 victories to be shown...
Were those 57 victories really confirmed at the beginning of July? Or was it usual to depict even un-confirmed victories...?
Sorry to bother you with "amateur" questions...
There may well be errors or inconsistencies in the victory tally, we can only go by the information at hand, the primary evidence is a Rudder marked with his tally at the time of his promotion to Staffel Kapitan of 1/JG77 and transfer to the MTO.
The Rudder photo was definitely taken in the MTO, as you can see the style of blast shelter wall in the background, there are other pics that show this type of vertical planking that confirm the theatre.
Freytag's first victory is listed as occurring in Norway against an RAF opponent in one source, I have a portion of the JG77 Victory list from the Prien JG77 series which indicates Freytag's first victory was scored on 13th July 1941, identified as a Mig 3.
I don't have a complete listing of his victory tally and not all aircraft are identified in the listing only a date on which the victory occurred.
With a '40' appearing in the wreath this would be when the Knight's Cross was awarded or put forward, it may well have been confirmed when he then had 49..?, one source quotes he received the Knight's Cross at 57 victories. This could be true too that he actually received the award after 57.
You must remember that a process would be followed, that is nomination for the Knight's Cross signed off by the Gruppen Kommandeur, then the Kommodore and forwarded to the appropriate department in Germany for confirmation, then reviewed, confirmed and rubber stamped. This process could take days, weeks and even months!
The pilot in question of course continuing in combat until such time as the award goes through the system and finally awarded to the pilot, either in a simple ceremony on base or called to Germany to receive the award.
The wreath artwork can be seen on 4 different Bf109F-4 'Experten' aircraft of JG77 Heinz Bar (100), Gordon Gollob (100), Freidrich Geisshardt (80) and Siegfried Freytag (40) the style of each is almost identical, indicating that the same artist was most likely responsible for each of them.
The Eagle at the top of each wreath clutches lightening bolts which have small national insignia of the nationalities of the victims included in the total up to the point at which the Knight's Cross was awarded, then victory bars are recorded beneath the wreath for further victories scored after the award.
Now this is where an anomally exists, the Prien list shows ALL 57 victories as being on the Russian front and therefore likely to be entirely Russian aircraft, SO the Artwork must be in a standard format for each of the aircraft possibly a stencil was made up for the basic outline and then filled in?...or the artist simply made each the same but with different totals, 100,80 and 40 and wasn't aware of the actual nationalities of each pilots tally?
A similar process, as above for awards, was followed for victory confirmation, written report with details and witness(s)
forwarded through the Staffel Kapitan, Gruppe Kommandeur and Kommodore to the Abbschuss Commission for verification, this also took time.
However it would be fairly certain that victory markings were applied to aircraft before final confirmation of acceptance was received, so it is possible that some are 'claimed' but not yet confirmed.
Hope this helps!
Of course it helps!
I'm sure Jochen Prien's books are the most credible source, I'm trying to find used issues in order to buy them.
This victory in Norway was supposed to be a Hudson, the T9377 of the 233rd RAF sqdn, missing october the 31st, 1940. "10 miles west of Ogne the 1600 ton German merchant vessel ILSE L.M. RUSS with minesweeper M.1103 was unsuccessfully attacked by fifteen bombs from three Hudsons. M.1103 claimed one Hudson shot down- also fighters from II/J.G. 77 claimed one Hudson shot down."
Some sources said Freytag claimed the Hudson, even though there is no clear evidence. But the course of action related clearly shows that the claim, if existing, could have been unsuccessfull!
Prien's book could be valuable to seek when exactly Freytag began his carrer, in Poland, as an NCO in september 39, in Norway in summer 1940 or in the Balkans in spring 41, as a leutnant...
It seems that even the Prien's sources aren't complete between july 41 and july 42, so I guess we'll never really know about Siegfried Freytag tally...
You are right for all this rudder's story, it could have been Freytag aircraft's rudder after all...
As I said, it will be great on a BF109G model, I'll show you the result!
Thanks again!
I'm sure Jochen Prien's books are the most credible source, I'm trying to find used issues in order to buy them.
This victory in Norway was supposed to be a Hudson, the T9377 of the 233rd RAF sqdn, missing october the 31st, 1940. "10 miles west of Ogne the 1600 ton German merchant vessel ILSE L.M. RUSS with minesweeper M.1103 was unsuccessfully attacked by fifteen bombs from three Hudsons. M.1103 claimed one Hudson shot down- also fighters from II/J.G. 77 claimed one Hudson shot down."
Some sources said Freytag claimed the Hudson, even though there is no clear evidence. But the course of action related clearly shows that the claim, if existing, could have been unsuccessfull!
Prien's book could be valuable to seek when exactly Freytag began his carrer, in Poland, as an NCO in september 39, in Norway in summer 1940 or in the Balkans in spring 41, as a leutnant...
It seems that even the Prien's sources aren't complete between july 41 and july 42, so I guess we'll never really know about Siegfried Freytag tally...
You are right for all this rudder's story, it could have been Freytag aircraft's rudder after all...
As I said, it will be great on a BF109G model, I'll show you the result!
Thanks again!
You're welcome!
Glenn Sprouse
Airman
Good Afternoon everyone:
Thanks for all of the discussion about this topic. I have learned alot about Freytag and Luftwaffe victory markings in general from these posts!
I have another variation of White 2 that includes the LG1 marking color changes that Wayne pointed out. It also includes the cross under the wings that I failed to put on in my previous two profiles. No other real changes. I was thinking about putting a spiral on the spinner for the model but I couldn't get it to look quite right on the profile. As usual, please give feedback/corrections.
Again, thanks for all of the help!
Glenn
Thanks for all of the discussion about this topic. I have learned alot about Freytag and Luftwaffe victory markings in general from these posts!
I have another variation of White 2 that includes the LG1 marking color changes that Wayne pointed out. It also includes the cross under the wings that I failed to put on in my previous two profiles. No other real changes. I was thinking about putting a spiral on the spinner for the model but I couldn't get it to look quite right on the profile. As usual, please give feedback/corrections.
Again, thanks for all of the help!
Glenn
Looks pretty good Glenn, a logical "version" based on the info at hand....doubt there would have been a spiral at this stage, especially in the MTO.
FalkeEins
Senior Airman
I've got Prien's book open in front of me (Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 3 1942-43)
two pics on P.1275 of Freytag in the cockpit of 'weisse 2' in October 1942 following a sortie against Malta as posted by Wayne earlier - very dark though, can't see much detail. However according to Prien's caption this aircraft wore a " dunkelgrün mottle over sandbraun as was the practise in I./JG 77 during this period " - this is not supposition on Prien's part - in his caption he says its ' deutlich sichtbar' - ie clearly visible and I think in the Freytag pic you can see a large patch of green mottle around the emblem just in front of the cockpit..
So Freytag's 'weisse 2' should look something like the 'colourised' jacket illustration here - a G-2 Trop in the markings of the Adjutant dated October 1942 - note 'weisse 4' behind the 109 in the foreground - this in-flight shot is also reproduced in b/w on P1265 of the book. Other than that there's not much on Freytag in the early chapters of the book that I've actually read - aside from the rudder photo already posted here..
any chance of 'up-dating' your profile Glenn and letting me post it on my blog ?
cheers
Neil
two pics on P.1275 of Freytag in the cockpit of 'weisse 2' in October 1942 following a sortie against Malta as posted by Wayne earlier - very dark though, can't see much detail. However according to Prien's caption this aircraft wore a " dunkelgrün mottle over sandbraun as was the practise in I./JG 77 during this period " - this is not supposition on Prien's part - in his caption he says its ' deutlich sichtbar' - ie clearly visible and I think in the Freytag pic you can see a large patch of green mottle around the emblem just in front of the cockpit..
So Freytag's 'weisse 2' should look something like the 'colourised' jacket illustration here - a G-2 Trop in the markings of the Adjutant dated October 1942 - note 'weisse 4' behind the 109 in the foreground - this in-flight shot is also reproduced in b/w on P1265 of the book. Other than that there's not much on Freytag in the early chapters of the book that I've actually read - aside from the rudder photo already posted here..
any chance of 'up-dating' your profile Glenn and letting me post it on my blog ?
cheers
Neil
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