Skyraider AD-4 Torpedo Mount

[Flylo]

Greetings,
Does anyone know of any pictures depicting the MK13 torpedo mount/release mechanism?
I can't discern anything in every picture I've seen other than 2 straps. Anything showing or even explaining the strap attach points would be appreciated. I'm thinking they attach to a 4 point system that attaches to the centerline mount?
Thanks!

 

[ThomasP]

Hey Flylo,

I do not have a copy, but there is a PDF format downloadable Skyraider Pilot's Handbook on the internet. I remember seeing drawings and a written description of the torpedo setup in the manual.

 

[Flylo]

Hey Flylo,

I do not have a copy, but there is a PDF format downloadable Skyraider Pilot's Handbook on the internet. I remember seeing drawings and a written description of the torpedo setup in the manual.

Thanks! I think I've seen that but wasn't sure it would have that information. I might as well bite the bullet. I've already invested way more time and money on this build than I planned. Which is par for the course.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey F Flylo ,

I have a PDF of the October 1949 version of the AD-2/-3/-2Q/-3Q Pilot's Handbook, but there is no description or diagram of torpedo carriage in it - so do not get that one.

Also, there were apparently 2 different methods of carrying heavy ordnance on the centerline. The later used a short pylon& rack. The early type used a rack with the main body of the rack inside the fuselage as shown in the drawing here:

"Douglas AD (A-1) Skyraider Pylons"

 

[Flylo]

Hey F Flylo ,

I have a PDF of the October 1949 version of the AD-2/-3/-2Q/-3Q Pilot's Handbook, but there is no description or diagram of torpedo carriage in it - so do not get that one.

Also, there were apparently 2 different methods of carrying heavy ordnance on the centerline. The later used a short pylon& rack. The early type used a rack with the main body of the rack inside the fuselage as shown in the drawing here:

"Douglas AD (A-1) Skyraider Pylons"

Thanks for that. I did download the AD-4 POH PDF and no mention of it there either.
Crazy how there's so much information on a WWII German fighter compared to a a plane that flew from the end of WWII to after Vietnam.

 

[MIflyer]

You can get both the AD-4 and the AD-5 pilot's manuals here (just scroll down the page):

Aviation Archives

aviationarchives.blogspot.com

 

[Capt. Vick]

Have you tried the two ginter books?

 

[Flylo]

You can get both the AD-4 and the AD-5 pilot's manuals here (just scroll down the page):

Aviation Archives

aviationarchives.blogspot.com

Thanks but I did get those and no luck.

 

[MIflyer]

I looked in the A-1 Warbird Tech book and while they have pictures of Skyraiders carrying torps you really can't see anything about the mount. However the pylons were capable of carrying torps as well.

 

[Flylo]

I looked in the A-1 Warbird Tech book and while they have pictures of Skyraiders carrying torps you really can't see anything about the mount. However the pylons were capable of carrying torps as well.

True but I'm trying to build a Hwachon Dam AD-4 with the MK13. Yet another surprising thing is that no one makes any VA-195 decals. One of the most notable missions flown in Korea besides Toki Ri and not one decal set to commemorate them? Hobbyboss makes a die-cast version but nothing in the styrene world.

 

[ekefe]

Dear Flylo, have finished your project? I'm finding the same problem than you. The Spad seems to be a Vietnam hardware only. Very few material about Korea. Sword in 1/72 has edited an AD-3/4 mold with Decals of a VA-195 Aircraft also, the 509, but no guarantee it has taken part of the Dam attack. Maybe could turn up-down the "9" in order to obtain the "6" but still some parts missing (the Squadron crest under the canopy, the Bu.No). Surfing on the web I've reconstructed the names of 7-8 on 8 of the strikers:

• CAG-19 Commander Cmdr. Richard C. Merrick who commanded the attack and was awarded postohumasly with the Navy Cross. Not certain if he flew a striking AD-4 and if he carried himself a Torpedo
• VA-195 commander: Lt. Cmdr. Harold Gustav "Swede" Carlson, who commanded the Torpedo carrying Skyrayder composite squadron (5 AD-4/AD-4Q from VA-195, the squadron in charge for the attack and 3 AD-4N from VC-35 because these 3 pilots only know how to drop an aerial torpedo). Evidence of Distinguished Flying Cross award not found, if hightly probable
• Lieutenant (?), Junior Grade, James R. "Sandy" Sanderson, VA-195, a pilot who partecipate to the attack. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lieutenant, (?) Junior Grade, Ed Phillips, VA-195, a pilot who partecipate to the attack. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lieutenant, Junior Grade, Robert "Bob" Bennett, later CDR, VA-195, a pilot who partecipate to the attack, that according the www.Johnfry.com website took some pictures (lately, in spring 1951) withe a Clarus Camera, but the three published aren't helping. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lt. Atlee F. Clapp, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Despite is experience its torpedo failed because defective. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lt. Frank Metzner, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Evidence of Distinguished Flying Cross award not found, if hightly probable
• Lt. Addison R. English, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Despite is experience its torpedo failed because defective. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross

But a picture only showing an attacker, the famous picture portraying the "506" with the single torpedo:
- No link of pilots' names to aircraft Sqn and buzz numbers
- no trace of the BuNo of the 506, of the right fuselage markings and its upper and lower wings markings (note that this aircraft had the exception of no "NAVY" marking in the rear part of the fuselage, so it could had other exceptions also)
- No detailed pict of the Rack that holds the Torpedo (most probably not the standard rack used for bombs, as the Mk.13 Torpedo wasn't any more in use during the Hwachon attack period and in one website I've read they had to study the flicht manual in order to understand how to fix this obsolete weapon to the aircraft belly)

Maybe I've found that the AD-4 "501" BuNo123827 was flought by Lt. Cmdr. Harold Gustav "Swede" Carlson, but this according the die cast model Hobby Master AD-4 Skyraider BuNo123827, VA-195 Dambusters, 1950s. No real picture of the aircraft found.

This what I have in my hand. What did you find at the end?

Ceers

David

 

[Flylo]

Dear Flylo, have finished your project? I'm finding the same problem than you. The Spad seems to be a Vietnam hardware only. Very few material about Korea. Sword in 1/72 has edited an AD-3/4 mold with Decals of a VA-195 Aircraft also, the 509, but no guarantee it has taken part of the Dam attack. Maybe could turn up-down the "9" in order to obtain the "6" but still some parts missing (the Squadron crest under the canopy, the Bu.No). Surfing on the web I've reconstructed the names of 7-8 on 8 of the strikers:

• CAG Commander Cmdr. Richard C. Merrick who commanded the attack and was awarded postohumasly with the Navy Cross. Not certain if he flew a striking AD-4 and if he carried himself a Torpedo
• VA-195 skipper Lt. Cmdr. Harold Gustav "Swede" Carlson, VA-195, who commanded the Torpedo carrying Skyrayder composite squadron (5 AD-4/AD-4Q from VA-195, the squadron in charge for the attack and 3 AD-4N from VC-35 because these 3 pilots only know how to drop an aerial torpedo). Evidence of Distinguished Flying Cross award not found, if hightly probable
• Lieutenant, Junior Grade, John B. Wittemore, VA-195, a pilot who partecipate to the attack. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lieutenant, Junior Grade, Robert "Bob" Bennett, later CDR, VA-195, a pilot who partecipate to the attack, that according the www.Johnfry.com website took some pictures (lately, in spring 1951) withe a Clarus Camera, but the three published aren't helping. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lt. Atlee F. Clapp, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Despite is experience its torpedo failed because defective. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross
• Lt. Frank Metzner, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Evidence of Distinguished Flying Cross award not found, if hightly probable
• Lt. Addison R. English, VC-35 pilot assigned to the attack, because of its experience in aerial torpedo use. Despite is experience its torpedo failed because defective. Awarded with Distinguished Flying Cross

But a picture only showing an attacker, the famous picture portraying the "506" with the single torpedo:
- No link of pilots' names to aircraft Sqn and buzz numbers
- no trace of the BuNo of the 506, of the right fuselage markings and its upper and lower wings markings (note that this aircraft had the exception of no "NAVY" marking in the rear part of the fuselage, so it could had other exceptions also)
- No detailed pict of the Rack that holds the Torpedo (most probably not the standard rack used for bombs, as the Mk.13 Torpedo wasn't any more in use during the Hwachon attack period and in one website I've read they had to study the flicht manual in order to understand how to fix this obsolete weapon to the aircraft belly)

Maybe I've found that the AD-4 "501" BuNo123827 was flought by Lt. Cmdr. Harold Gustav "Swede" Carlson, but this according the die cast model Hobby Master AD-4 Skyraider BuNo123827, VA-195 Dambusters, 1950s. No real picture of the aircraft found.

This what I have in my hand. What did you find at the end?

Ceers

David

David,
Your research was far more thorough than mine! I was chiefly focused on the appropriate markings and weathering and the torpedo details. I missed the mark on most.
The project was far more involved and I had some finishing setbacks along the way. Towards the end I just wanted it 'done'. I also cowardly embraced the idea that nobody else knows exactly what the particular AD-4 looked like either as even "standard" markings varied across squadrons back then. As you've found, so few photos or aftermarket decal options exist for these 'raiders. There was apparently a very limited run of 1/48 decals for the mission aircraft, but I couldn't find them. I ended up making my own version of the VA-195 emblem below the canopy from a photo. It looks ok from about 24"! Besides the issues with converting the A-1E into the AD-4 (removing the armor plating and re-scribing panel lines, for one.) I couldn't find any details on the torpedo mount so I used a photo that showed the straps and went with the centerline rack out of frustration and waning motivation to fashion an unknown and proper mount. The torpedo and its plywood mods were aftermarket details found online. I tried to simulate the hurried , slathered on white paint used on the plywood by, well, slathering white paint. I pushed the exhaust stains beyond the just right point and also had a paint dissolving issue on the wings that was due to a clear coat or decal solution incompatiblity. So after nearly binning the whole thing it turned into a salvage job with too thick paint and amateurish scribing and an attitude of "nobody is going to see it so just get it done and move on" project. I've attached some pics so you can see what I did, and 'how not to do it'. For the record the Tigercat I did afterwards turned out much better.
Good luck and I'd love to see how yours turns out.
Andrew

 

[ekefe]

Many thanks for the prompt reply.

Nice kit indeed greetings.
I see you have re created the VA-195 crest by paint as (it seems impossible) no one has ever print it on a decal. The new 1/72 AD-4 (finally!) Sword kit that I owe has in its decals a VA-195 Aircraft but the "509" as in a famous picture of (I suppose of the 1952) with plenty of bombs. Witout this crest anyway. So I think I'll have to try to print a decal of my own, or paint in some way.
I include the drawing given me for kind concession of the National Naval Aviation Museum that i conctated (they made me have, very kindly indeed all the picts I'm going to attach).

I have a question about the Serial Nr I see: 123771. have you found some proof about? Trying to magnifying the "506" pict is impossible to read (2nd pict attached) even if it's a crop from the high resolution picture. Forgotten Props - A Warbirds Resource Group Site give me as beloging to VA-75 as L-515 in 1952

Speaking about the Torpedo Rack I've double checked all the drawings and images I obtained or found and i've arrived to a finding. I'm not fully sure of it because all the picts are very difficoult to read in someway, but I guess it rather plausible missing the definitive proof. If someone had the AD-4 Skyraider Erection & Maintenance Pilot's Handbook Flight Manual most probably there would be the answer to how to mount the torpedo (now a bid on ebay but the seller ship in the USA only...)
The starting point it a magnification of the Hi res quality pict of the 506 (by the way the original caption of the pict sent me by museum attributes it to the Lt Cmdr Carlson, where for others the Carlson aircraft was the 501...: AD-4 Skyraider BuNo123827, VA-195 Dambusters, 1950s

Checking with other images I've found that probably the mount was composed by four positioning braces (ref 3 in green), two for side; 4 alligned pins (ref 2 in azure) used as spacing between the aircraft belly, and the top of the torpedo; most probably almost one of them (the 2-3 for the bell shape?) was containing an explosive cartridge in order to eject the bomb in case of dive bombing, but Sanderson in its article of 2004 that Museum sent me, says that they feared that this little explosion could damage Torpedo or the fall of it anyway, so they operate all by hand. The pictures evidence a sort of thin plate or membrane or web or... (?) that runs parallel to aircraft belly and the upper surface of the torpedo, jus in the middle of the space between them. No idea what it was, but it seem it was there. In the pictures I've found no trace of the large bands you used to retain the torpedo. There is evidence of them in the picture of the bomb, but in was a bomb not a Torpedo and they are hightly visible there. On the aircraft carrying the torpedo picture there isn't trace of them. The question of how an heavy torpedo could be retained is still unanswered, but maybe it's right the thin plate (or web?) a trace for the solution. Anyway if I serach how the torpedo were usually retained in the 2 WW usually were tight to the rack by two wires (in the Douglas TBD Devastator wires were tied to a hole with a wire cutter in the two bomb racks running parallel on the two sides to the frontal part of the bomb bay; In the Savoia Marchetti SM 79 a famous Italian Torpedo Bomber the same; but AD-4 hasn't the two racks with the wire cutter) so I'm expecting the holes with the wire cutter were somewere in the belly, or maybe just in the rack embedded in the fuselage. Anyway in the pict no trace of wires also, but thin wires in a not sharp picture could be almost unvisible

 

[MiTasol]

Try Log in | AirCorps Library

EDIT there are a few other manuals as well as what is shown.

 

[Flylo]

I'm afraid I've probably tried to forget this project and the resultant kit after the all the frustration it caused.
I know that the straps were in a photo of the AD-4 carrying the torpedo. I can't find the source photo at the moment but will try and find the book I found it in. I believe it was a Squadron Signal book.
As for the b/n? I'm pretty sure I just used a set from a Korean War era decal set that I used the other ID markings from.

Many thanks for the prompt reply.

Nice kit indeed greetings.
I see you have re created the VA-195 crest by paint as (it seems impossible) no one has ever print it on a decal. The new 1/72 AD-4 (finally!) Sword kit that I owe has in its decals a VA-195 Aircraft but the "509" as in a famous picture of (I suppose of the 1952) with plenty of bombs. Witout this crest anyway. So I think I'll have to try to print a decal of my own, or paint in some way.
I include the drawing given me for kind concession of the National Naval Aviation Museum that i conctated (they made me have, very kindly indeed all the picts I'm going to attach).

I have a question about the Serial Nr I see: 123771. have you found some proof about? Trying to magnifying the "506" pict is impossible to read (2nd pict attached) even if it's a crop from the high resolution picture. Forgotten Props - A Warbirds Resource Group Site give me as beloging to VA-75 as L-515 in 1952

Speaking about the Torpedo Rack I've double checked all the drawings and images I obtained or found and i've arrived to a finding. I'm not fully sure of it because all the picts are very difficoult to read in someway, but I guess it rather plausible missing the definitive proof. If someone had the AD-4 Skyraider Erection & Maintenance Pilot's Handbook Flight Manual most probably there would be the answer to how to mount the torpedo (now a bid on ebay but the seller ship in the USA only...)
The starting point it a magnification of the Hi res quality pict of the 506 (by the way the original caption of the pict sent me by museum attributes it to the Lt Cmdr Carlson, where for others the Carlson aircraft was the 501...: AD-4 Skyraider BuNo123827, VA-195 Dambusters, 1950s

Checking with other images I've found that probably the mount was composed by four positioning braces (ref 3 in green), two for side; 4 alligned pins (ref 2 in azure) used as spacing between the aircraft belly, and the top of the torpedo; most probably almost one of them (the 2-3 for the bell shape?) was containing an explosive cartridge in order to eject the bomb in case of dive bombing, but Sanderson in its article of 2004 that Museum sent me, says that they feared that this little explosion could damage Torpedo or the fall of it anyway, so they operate all by hand. The pictures evidence a sort of thin plate or membrane or web or... (?) that runs parallel to aircraft belly and the upper surface of the torpedo, jus in the middle of the space between them. No idea what it was, but it seem it was there. In the pictures I've found no trace of the large bands you used to retain the torpedo. There is evidence of them in the picture of the bomb, but in was a bomb not a Torpedo and they are hightly visible there. On the aircraft carrying the torpedo picture there isn't trace of them. The question of how an heavy torpedo could be retained is still unanswered, but maybe it's right the thin plate (or web?) a trace for the solution. Anyway if I serach how the torpedo were usually retained in the 2 WW usually were tight to the rack by two wires (in the Douglas TBD Devastator wires were tied to a hole with a wire cutter in the two bomb racks running parallel on the two sides to the frontal part of the bomb bay; In the Savoia Marchetti SM 79 a famous Italian Torpedo Bomber the same; but AD-4 hasn't the two racks with the wire cutter) so I'm expecting the holes with the wire cutter were somewere in the belly, or maybe just in the rack embedded in the fuselage. Anyway in the pict no trace of wires also, but thin wires in a not sharp picture could be almost unvisible

I think I've tried to forget this project for the aforementioned frustrations and screw ups.
I've attached a photo that may have led me to believe there were straps but it may have simply been some markings on the torpedo itself. Though for some reason I thought a Squadron Signal book had a photo of straps, though I may be wrong. I may have gone the strap route as it was easier than making an unknown cradle and as I said, I just wanted to finish it and realized no one else would know or care or even see it. Whoops.
As for the bureau numbers, I likely used some incorrect ones from a decal set for Korean War AD-4's. That's where I got some other markings.
I'd likely try this project again if I had some more photos to work from. Every modeled version of these planes I've seen seem to take some artistic license or omit the details.
As for the squadron logo, I probably would have done no worse painting it than the decal I reproduced (poorly) from a photo.
I was quite surprised that no detail drawings or manuals could be found illustrating the rack or that no decals were available for such a notable AD-4.
Good luck!

 

[ThomasP]

I cannot say if the straps were used on the Skyraider, but straps of one form or another were used on the TBD, TBF/TBM, SB2C, PBY, B-25, and B-26. The AM-1 Mauler, a contemporary of the AD-1, also used straps (they are hard to see on the closest 2 torpedoes but visible on the far torpedo).

 

[ThomasP]

Huh - I just found this picture of the AD-1 Skyraider with a full load including a torpedo on centerline. Again, it is hard to make out the details of the straps, but they are their.

 

[Flylo]

Huh - I just found this picture of the AD-1 Skyraider with a full load including a torpedo on centerline. Again, it is hard to make out the details of the straps, but they are their.

View attachment 839781

View attachment 839782

Yup. That's a picture I referenced as well. I'm almost certain I saw bare metal straps in another photo.

 

[SaparotRob]

I cannot say if the straps were used on the Skyraider, but straps of one form or another were used on the TBD, TBF/TBM, SB2C, PBY, B-25, and B-26. The AM-1 Mauler, a contemporary of the AD-1, also used straps (they are hard to see on the closest 2 torpedoes but visible on the far torpedo).

View attachment 839778

View attachment 839779

I sometimes forget how awesome the Mauler is.

 

[ekefe]

Yes Flylo you are right. Surfing my references I've found the same Pict (Pict. 10, SAM Publ. MDF 26. "the Douglas A-1 Skyraider") plus others (Pict 6, Pic.12) showing these straps. But please note thera are all taken in aircraft of test squadrons (VX-1, NATC), not operative ones. So I fear we could be in front of the difference between theory and pratic. More, I've found more picts on the belly of the AD early series, till the -4 included, (Picts.4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 13) which provide an internal rack with only the 2 Aero 1A adapters hooks protruding and 1 conic other hole in the middle (Pict 1 and 2), most probable for the arming / release part of the Mk.51 internal rack a suggested in the Tailthook Topic Draft Douglas AD (A-1) Skyraider Pylons (second Picture). In the Pict 15, instead, you can find the AERO late Rack here on an AD-5, used in tle late AD-4AN, AD-5 an AD-6, but too late for the AD-4 / AD-4Q reported used in the Hwachon Dam attack the 1st of may 1951. Photo evidence in pict 5 shows us it as a forked device most probably used for to push away bombs (or torpedoes), out of the spinner rage, in a dive. Now I have to apply these considerations to the famous "506" + torpedo picture (pict 0a let me kindly have by National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola), where probably, magnifying, (Picture 0) we can see the two hooks keeping something that could be the straps, but no straps at all (that in the most of the pictures I've found they appear clarely) is really visible on the torpedo surface. Maybe only a shadow of them, willing to search and find... More, enlarging the pict there is a strange black thin line, running parallel between aircraft surface and torpedo one that I'm not capable to explain without furter documents. There is a very interresting picture on a "Foundation", spring 2004, article let me kindly have by National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, where is depicted (the other pict. 0) the moment where the Torpedo are mounted on aircraft (we can see on the wheel bay cover what it seems a "3" or an "8", let me supposing that the "503" or maybe the "508" was in the business), we can see well the frontal plywood ring and the backward plywood box (very well repesented by you), the torpedo tail where there are traces of a black ring (making me suppose the torpedoes where the version produced by the California Institute of Technology who developed the airfoil-section shroud ring depicted (Evolution of a Ship-Sinker). Unfortunately a ground crew member completely covers the attachment area, leaving a glimpse of something, a thin spessor and other, laying on the top of the torpedo in the attachment area. Something like that is shown in the AD-4 in the uss alabama battleship memorial park, the same in Pensacola, Florida, but I've been not able to find detailed pictures, only general ones that I've magnyfied (pict.3) Anyway I'm collecting more info., I hope to release a PDF at the end if I'll be succesful to enlight completely the device. Very far to enlight the VA-195 5xx MODEX number associated with their Serial nr. used in the attack (except for the "506", but witout its serial, the "501" that some source report to have part on the attack, and of which we have the Serial, curiously both attributed to the VA-195 CMDR Carlson,
View: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1222194775265111, AD-4 Skyraider BuNo123827, VA-195 Dambusters, 1950s, and Pict 0b let me kindly have by National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola)