Skyraider suitable for escort carriers??

[Piper106]

Was the Douglas BT2D / AD Skyraider suitable for operation from escort aircraft carriers?? Limits on Takeoff weight when operating off these smaller carriers?

If the Skyraider was not suitable for operation from an escort carrier, was there escort carrier 'suitable' replacement planned for the SBD and TBF/TBM generation of aircraft???

 

[EwenS]

Was the Douglas BT2D / AD Skyraider suitable for operation from escort aircraft carriers?? Limits on Takeoff weight when operating off these smaller carriers?

If the Skyraider was not suitable for operation from an escort carrier, was there escort carrier 'suitable' replacement planned for the SBD and TBF/TBM generation of aircraft???

The only escort carriers to operate the SBD were the 4 Sangamon class, which lraded them for more TBF/TBM by mid-1944. The later SB2C Helldiver, not the SBD, was of the same generation as the TBF, and other than for training purposes or delivery of replacements to the fleet never flew from the decks of escort carriers.

Just before the end of the war the USN began a reorganisation of it carrier air groups with a view to eliminating the TBF/TBM altogether at least from the fleet carriers by late 1946. By this time the need was seen to be more dive bombers in view of the way the war had moved, and the elimination of the IJN surface fleet as a threat. The first step in that process which was beginning to happen in Aug 1945, saw the elimination of the TBF/TBM from the CVL air groups in exchange for more fighters. The next step would have been for the CV to reduce the number of TBM & fighters for more SB2C (which could be used as TB if the need arose). The MIdways air groups were built around the F4U & SB2C only.

However there were other versions of the TBM coming along to fill any immediate need.

The XTBM-4 flew in June 1945 with a strengthened airframe. Eastern were due to switch production to that version in late 1945 but the order for 900 was cancelled before that could happen. In an attempt to improve the performance of the TBM-3E, 2 aircraft were modified at NAMU as XTBM-5 prototypes, but development ended with the end of WW2.

From July 1944 Grumman was developing a 2 seat replacement for the TBF/TBM in the shape of what became the XTB3F (later AF) Guardian. Postwar, with the AD-1 Skyraider & AM-1 Mauler developed to fill the DB/TB role on the fleet carriers, the Guardian was developed as a ASW aircraft to replace the ASW TBMs from around 1950. Some of these may have operated from the larger Commencement Bay class CVE in the ASW role in the 1950s. Postwar it was only a few of these CVE that saw any service in the active fleet operating fixed wing aircraft.

 

[GregP]

He was asking about Skyraiders on Escort Carriers, not Dauntlesses or Avengers ...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Bogue, Casablanca, and Commencement Bay classes all had flight decks between 433' and 501' (source for this are the Navypedia entries on these classes). The same entries do not log any AD-1s serving aboard any of these carriers so far as I can see, perhaps because getting them off the deck at GTOW might have been too big an ask? Or perhaps it's as simple as wanting the newest and shiniest planes on the big flattops and rotating the TBFs/TBMs to the escort carriers where they could still carry out excellent ASW work?

BOGUE escort aircraft carriers (1942 - 1943)

CASABLANCA escort aircraft carriers (1943 - 1944)

COMMENCEMENT BAY escort aircraft carriers (1944 - 1946)

 

[Piper106]

The Bogue, Casablanca, and Commencement Bay classes all had flight decks between 433' and 501' (source for this are the Navypedia entries on these classes). The same entries do not log any AD-1s serving aboard any of these carriers so far as I can see. Or perhaps it's as simple as wanting the newest and shiniest planes on the big flattops and rotating the TBFs/TBMs to the escort carriers where they could still carry out excellent ASW work?

You are probably right, the escort carriers didn't need Skyraiders to fulfill their assigned missions, and therefore were not/never assigned ADs.
I am however just trying to get my mind around which aircraft types could operate from the escort carriers had the need arose.

What I think I know;

Operated (or capable of) from escort carriers; F4F / FM Wildcat, F8F Bearcat, SBD Dauntless, and TBF/TBM Avenger

Not suitable; F4U Corsair, SB2C Helldiver, BTD Destroyer, F7F Tigercat

Question mark??: F6F Hellcat, BT2D / AD Skyraider, AM Mauler, Kaiser BTK, TBY/TBU, TB3F / AF Guardian

To further muddy the water, there might be types that could fly from / onto the escort carriers, but maybe were too big to fit the flight deck elevators (I'm looking at you SB2C) or too tall for the hanger deck on these smaller carriers.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You are probably right, the escort carriers didn't need Skyraiders to fulfill their assigned missions, and therefore were not/never assigned ADs.
I am however just trying to get my mind around which aircraft types could operate from the escort carriers had the need arose.

What I think I know;

Operated (or capable of) from escort carriers; F4F / FM Wildcat, F8F Bearcat, SBD Dauntless, and TBF/TBM Avenger

Not suitable; F4U Corsair, SB2C Helldiver, BTD Destroyer, F7F Tigercat

Question mark??: F6F Hellcat, BT2D / AD Skyraider, AM Mauler, Kaiser BTK, TBY/TBU, TB3F / AF Guardian

To further muddy the water, there might be types that could fly from / onto the escort carriers, but maybe were too big to fit the flight deck elevators (I'm looking at you SB2C) or too tall for the hanger deck on these smaller carriers.

The three main classes I linked to could indeed operate F4Us and F6Fs, though not all actually did.

The AD-1 was only about 1,500 pounds heavier GTOW than a TBF/TBM, and roughly the same size. With wings folded, an AD-1 could fit into any of the hangars, though it would be tight -- about 18" of clearance from the hangar roof at best.

 

[EwenS]

USS Mindoro CVE-120 in May 1954 with a deckload of Grumman AF Guardians and the odd helicopter.
(Piasecki HUP Retriever beside the forward lift & Sikorsky HO4S between the rows of Guardians). Post war she was a training and ASW carrier operating out of Norfolk and taking part in exercises in the Atlantic & Med.

There are also photos of her in 1953 operating the Grumman AF2S Tracker, on trials prior to its service introduction the following year.

 

[ThomasP]

Guardian HK teams operated from CVEs on a regular basis, although I think all were Commencement Bay class. I cannot say that the Guardian never operated off of another class of CVE, but unless it was something like trials I do not think they did.

 

[EwenS]

Lift sizes:-
Bogue - 41x33ft fwd, 33x41ft aft. rated at 14,000lb
Sangamon - two 34x42ft, rated at 14,000lb
Casablanca - 38x42ft fwd, 42x34ft aft, rated at 14,000lb
Commencement Bay - two 44x42ft, rated at 17,000lb (increased postwar in the ships used for ASW to 23,000lb).

Clear hangar height in all thee ships was 17ft 6in, the same as in an Essex or MIdway class.

Once WW2 was over the Bogue, Sangamon & Casablanca classes were quickly consigned to the Reserve Fleet with very few seeing any further service before being sold for scrap. Only some of the Commencement Bay class were retained, or re-activated, for service in the active fleet. A few Bogues & Casablancas were used as aircraft transports with the MSTS in the Korean War, then in 1959 4 Bogues, 19 Commencement Bay & 13 Casablancas were reclassified as aircraft ferries (AKV) but only a few saw any service as such. Card was one that did, ferrying aircraft to Vietnam where she was mined at Saigon in 1964 and subsequently salvaged.

One Casablanca, Thetis Bay, was converted to a prototype helicopter carrier in 1955/56 (as CVHA-1 later LPH-6). A similar conversion of CVE-106 Block Island was cancelled.

All these classes were capable of operating the F6F, F4U, F8F, TBF/TBM & SB2C. By the end of WW2 Bogues, Casablancas & the Commencement Bay (CVE-105) were operating as training carriers in both the Atlantic & the Pacific, helping to teach fledgling naval pilots the art of deck landing. Bogues & Casablancas also formed part of the replenishment force for the Pacific Fleet carriers, flying off replacement aircraft and accepting flyable duds from the operational carriers during replenishment periods. Here is a photo of USS Attu CVE-102 in June 1945 in that role, having survived the infamous Typhoon Connie. Note the SB2C at the forward end of the flight deck as well as TBM aft (note a few got wrecked).

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

According to Norman Friedman none of the US built escort carriers that served in the RN entered post war USN service. The last of the 10 USN operated Bogue class was decommissioned in November 1946, last of the 50 Casablanca class February 1947, the 2 Long Island class in March 1946, the 1 Prince William class in August 1946, last of the 4 Sangamon class in October 1946. That leaves the 17 Commencement Bay class 7 decommissioned by November 1946 another 4 by November 1947, the final 6 between June 1954 and May 1957, CVE 114, 115, 116, 118, 120, 122, but see below,

All up 83 commissioned escort carriers, down to 77 by end 1945, 13 by end 1946, 6 by end 1947.

Bogue class CVE-11, 13, Casablanca class CVE 58, 64, 86, 88, 92 served as aircraft transports in the 1950's, with two continuing into the 1960's, CVE-90 recommissioned 1956 to 1964 became LPH-6 in May 1959

6 of the Commencement Bay class were recommissioned,
106, April 1951 to August 1954
107, September 1951 to January 1955, also AGMR-1 March 1964 to December 1969
108, February 1951 to December 1955, also MSTS aircraft transport service 1965 to 1939
110, June 1951 to February 1954
112, January 1950 to July 1956
119, July 1951 to August 1956, aircraft transport 1965 to 1969

 

[ThomasP]

re

Lift sizes:-
Bogue - 41x33ft fwd, 33x41ft aft. rated at 14,000lb
Sangamon - two 34x42ft, rated at 14,000lb
Casablanca - 38x42ft fwd, 42x34ft aft, rated at 14,000lb
Commencement Bay - two 44x42ft, rated at 17,000lb (increased postwar in the ships used for ASW to 23,000lb).

This explains why the Guardians were only operated from the Commencement Bay class.

The BASIC weight (ie no fuel, ammo, or ordnance) for AF-2S Guardian was ~15,300 lbs, while that of the AF-2W was ~16,000 lbs. The elevator weight capacity would have prevented the operation of the Guardian from the 3 CVEs with a limit of 14,000 lbs.

The overall tail-down length (~44') and wings folded width (~26') would also be more problematic on the 3 carriers with smaller elevators, as they would have to be positioned on more of a diagonal to be sure of clearing the well edges - though all 4 could only transfer one Guardian at a time.

 

[GreenKnight121]

You are probably right, the escort carriers didn't need Skyraiders to fulfill their assigned missions, and therefore were not/never assigned ADs.
I am however just trying to get my mind around which aircraft types could operate from the escort carriers had the need arose.

What I think I know;

Operated (or capable of) from escort carriers; F4F / FM Wildcat, F8F Bearcat, SBD Dauntless, and TBF/TBM Avenger

Not suitable; F4U Corsair, SB2C Helldiver, BTD Destroyer, F7F Tigercat

Question mark??: F6F Hellcat, BT2D / AD Skyraider, AM Mauler, Kaiser BTK, TBY/TBU, TB3F / AF Guardian

To further muddy the water, there might be types that could fly from / onto the escort carriers, but maybe were too big to fit the flight deck elevators (I'm looking at you SB2C) or too tall for the hanger deck on these smaller carriers.

Just as a note on Commencement Bay Class CVEs operating Corsairs... which they did in both WW2 and Korea - they also operated from Casablanca-class CVEs.

Here are Corsairs operating from Casablanca-class CVEs in WW2:

And Commencement Bay class CVEs:

F4U-1D on USS Block Island CVE-106 (date unknown):

F4U-4 ready for take-off from CVE-118 Sicily in Korean waters 1950:

VMF-214 aboard CVE-116 Badoeng Strait 1950 or 51:

 

[MIflyer]

Here is an article about F6F operating from escort carriers for Operation Dragoon. The F6F became a suitable substitute for dedicated attack aircraft.

 

[EwenS]

TG 88.1 under Rear Adm Sir Thomas Troubridge
Attacker & Khedive carrying Seafire L.III
Pursuer & Searcher carrying Wildcat V
Emperor carrying F6F-3 Hellcat I

No Helldivers as stated in the second to last para.

TG 88.2 under Rear Adm C T Durgin
Tulagi & Kasaan Bay with F6F-5 Hellcats
Hunter & Stalker with Seafire L.IIc / L.III

The FAA only received 26 SBW-1B Helldivers. Only one squadron, 1820, was equipped with them between April & Dec 1944 and it never became fully operational. The problem was USN denial of any further aircraft beyond replacements for the initial deliveries. It meant that it would not have been worthwhile keeping it in service, so the RN gave up trying to get any more. Adm King was being blamed for keeping them all for USN use in the Pacific.