So who did it, the Jug or the Stang?

[drgondog]

Recently I have started to wonder about what if the Germans simply transferred all of their fighters from the Eastern Front in 1944 to the Western Front. That would make about twice the number of fighters in West, quite possibly causing a very different situation...

Tante Ju - interesting scenario. I would think that the only time frame such change would be positive for LW over Germany would be in late 1943 when the LW was already stripping Ost and Sud to build up LuftFlotte Reich. That would give the recently transferred pilots time to acclimate to the difference in battle conditions and experience combat with the P-38/47 and 51 when their numbers in German airspace was still low.

Certainly there would have been higher 8th BC losses during Big Week and higher 8th FC losses as well. The Berlin mission would have been much bloodier as well as all the battles in March and April.

But, moving day fighters to West would have to be accompanied with a change of orders - namely engage the fighters throughout the escort profile with the newly acquired strength to strip them from escort capability. IMO the 8th AF suffers higher losses but perhaps the LW bleeds out faster in March, April and May.

And, the air over all the Wermacht in the East belong to the Russians - probably accelerating the retreat from Russia which created perhaps worse problems for Germany.

 

[airminded88]

Drgondog, you're right. Every veteran from the Allied air forces who endured horrendous losses from air and ground opposition in their operations and witnessed the tremendous advantage of having efficient escort coverage that, on many occasions saved their own lives, would sharply disagree with the notion that good escorts with good range ended up being a bit more than an afterthought in the air war over Europe.
Escorts were an integral part of the aerial assault that crippled German industry and seriously weakened Nazi Germany, just as that aerial offensive itself was an integral part of the overall, multinational Allied effort that achieved final victory against the Axis powers.
IMHO it would be unreasonable to claim fighters or bombers as the sole reason why the Axis Powers capitulated just as it would be unreasonable not to give them the objective share of credit they deserve.

Thank you for that detailed account of the events taking place on May 12th, 1944. It is very useful to me in getting a better pictured of the overall diurnal air war between the USAAF and LW.

 

[stug3]

Both the P-51 and the P-47 were very effective fighters, the P-51 had the advantage in range, but the Jug was a better FB roles. Both were very effective at just putting pressure on the Germans, and this, of itself, increased the german loss rates to unsustainable levels. But then, so too were the activities of thoise a/c like the Spit and the YAK that have been written off in this discussion as irrlevant. Without those very a/c, the P-51s and the P-47s would not have been able to operate as they did.

No one is saying RAF VVS fighters were irrelevant. If I understand what the OP was getting at, this thread was supposed to be a debate as to whether the P-51 or the P-47 had a greater role in the reduction of LW influence on the outcome in western Europe. IMO, the range of the P-51 gives it the edge.

 

[airminded88]

Parsifal,
'Neither and Both' is a very good answer.

If we discuss attrition, the LW was slowly being bled to death since 1939 when it took on the Polish air force which, as far as I can remember, managed to inflict losses to the LW before it collapsed against a larger and better prepared adversary.
It's hard to ignore how on all the quests for conquest that Nazi Germany and its LW took on since that point, they were weakened by varying levels on attrition on each campaign.

When it comes to the daylight strategic bombing of Nazi-occupied Europe and Nazi Germany itself; the P-47, the P-51 (as all the Allied planes that took part in it) and the men who flew them, restricted at times by operational decisions and technical limitations; did their part to defeat the LW.

I'll leave the percentages of credit to the discretion of the contributors.

 

[muscogeemike]

But the P-47s did not escort the bombers all the way to Berlin like the P-38s and P-51s did.

Edward Jablonski's AIRWAR, Wings of Fire, Target Germany, Kites Over Berlin: March 6, 1944, "the first full scale attack (on Berlin) took place", "…Mustangs and Thunderbolts, which on this day also made the trip to Berlin."
Later paragraph states "…the Fortresses and Liberators were covered in relays by Lightnings, Thunderbolts and Mustangs…deep into Germany."

 

[drgondog]

Edward Jablonski's AIRWAR, Wings of Fire, Target Germany, Kites Over Berlin: March 6, 1944, "the first full scale attack (on Berlin) took place", "…Mustangs and Thunderbolts, which on this day also made the trip to Berlin."
Later paragraph states "…the Fortresses and Liberators were covered in relays by Lightnings, Thunderbolts and Mustangs…deep into Germany."

Milosh is correct. The operative word is 'relay'. All the P-47 Penetration and Withdrwal escorts had to turn back in the Hannover/Misburg area. Only the P-38s and P-51's could go as far as Berlin.

 

[dobbie]

Maybe a relative thing so far as which aircraft was more effective in air to air battles. the 47s and 38s came in first, followed by the 51. If the 38,
47 and 51 had arrived at the same time, which one being more effective would be easy to see. The fact that the Lightning and Thunderbolt initially took the battle to the enemy first speaks to the courage and skill of those airmen who laid the groundwork and those who followed.

 

[drgondog]

Maybe a relative thing so far as which aircraft was more effective in air to air battles. the 47s and 38s came in first, followed by the 51. If the 38,
47 and 51 had arrived at the same time, which one being more effective would be easy to see. The fact that the Lightning and Thunderbolt initially took the battle to the enemy first speaks to the courage and skill of those airmen who laid the groundwork and those who followed.

Dobbie - in most cases, those that started in P-47 or P-38 also continued to convert to the P-51. If you study the Group histories, EVERY Fighter Group that converted from P-47 to P-51 or P-38 to P-51 were more effective than when they flew the P-47 and P-38. Those include the 4th, 20th, 55th, 78th, 353rd, 355th, 356th, 359th, 361st, 364th and 479th. The 354th and 357th Started with P-51s and outscored every FG in ETO and MTO except the 56th FG. Both were in the range of 40-60 less victory credits shy of the 56th (from 664) despite flying only 50% of the sorties.

 

[davebender]

I can scarcely imagine using a Mosquito for target towing when the RAF had thousands of Hurricanes and P-40s available.

 

[stug3]

Maybe a relative thing so far as which aircraft was more effective in air to air battles. the 47s and 38s came in first, followed by the 51. If the 38,
47 and 51 had arrived at the same time, which one being more effective would be easy to see. The fact that the Lightning and Thunderbolt initially took the battle to the enemy first speaks to the courage and skill of those airmen who laid the groundwork and those who followed.

You're seriously suggesting the P-38 was a better dogfighter than the P-51? Or had a more positive effect in general on American efforts in the European air war? I disagree.
I can sort of understand prejudice in favor of the Thunderbolt, it had certain attributes that the Mustang didnt. But not the Lightning.

 

[dobbie]

You're seriously suggesting the P-38 was a better dogfighter than the P-51? Or had a more positive effect in general on American efforts in the European air war? I disagree.
I can sort of understand prejudice in favor of the Thunderbolt, it had certain attributes that the Mustang didnt. But not the Lightning.

And just where in my post do you see me suggesting any such thing? Im merely pointing out the fact that prior to the arrival of the mustang, most of the groups were cutting their combat teeth on the 38s and 47s. I realize that all in all, the mustang was the better escort fighter, but I dont think Id be so quick to turn my nose up like you seem to about the P38. Huge problems with that plane and the F G and H models were nowhere near as capable as the J-L, but the early long range escort was the P38 with fairly inexperienced pilots flying against an enemy with very capable aircraft and a lot more target practice.

That they could come away as well as they did in the early part of the war indicates that their training wasnt totally bad, and while the aircraft wasnt what they really needed, those pilots did a fine job with what they had at the time. And once these now experienced pilots could get their hands on a more capable escort fighter, it would be reasonable to assume that they would be even more capable against an enemy whose experienced flyers were becoming fewer as the war progress. Call it a deep respect.

My personal favorite is the P47, warts and all, but thats a different story. I met Robert S. Johnson and Francis Gabreski some years ago which might explain a bit of my prejudice......

 

[stug3]

And just where in my post do you see me suggesting any such thing?

Here-

Maybe a relative thing so far as which aircraft was more effective in air to air battles. the 47s and 38s came in first, followed by the 51.

Huge problems with that plane and the F G and H models were nowhere near as capable as the J-L.

A big reason why the P-38 was never close to being as effective successful as the P-51, which was good to go from the P-51B and subsequent models.

 

[dobbie]

Stug, you dont follow me at all, nevermind

 

[drgondog]

Dobbie, what you may not remember is that only one P-38 FG, the 55th, was operational before the first Mustang Group - six weeks before the 354th FG flew its first combat mission. The 20th flew its first operational mission 2 weeks After the 354th.

Net - in the ETO there weren't much in the way of P-38's 'forging the way'.

The MTO and PTO was a different story and a different war against far fewer enemy fighters, largely in an environment where the intercooler and cockpit heating issues weren't severe. Additionally the 9th and then 12th AF required a larger mix of CAS for which the P-38's bomb load and firepower ranked it with the P-47 and far superior to the P-39 and P-40 and Spit in that role.

As to predjudice for the P-47, no problem here. It was an excellent fighter whose primary deficiency was lack of enough range to be the Primary escort selection for all USAAF heavy bomber operations.

 

[airminded88]

My personal favorite is the P47, warts and all, but thats a different story. I met Robert S. Johnson and Francis Gabreski some years ago which might explain a bit of my prejudice......

What a honor Dobbie!

 

[airminded88]

Drgondog,
I have knowledge that some P-38 units were posted to 8th FC early in the 8th AF operational life in late 1942, but then were transferred to North Africa to the 12th AF as part of the Operation Torch buildup; I too know that later on a couple of P-38 FGs reappeared in 8th FC late in 1943, into 1944.

Were some of those FGs moved up from the MTO or any other theater of operations, or were they newly minted units arrived from the ZOI?

 

[J.A.W.]

I recall reading that Urban Drew, after flying combat missions in both the P-51D[ETO] P-47N [PTO], -expressed a clear preference for the Mustang, as a fighter plane..

 

[airminded88]

I have no knowledge of what kind of achievements Urban Drew managed in the PTO; he certainly made a name for himself fighting over the skies of Europe.

 

[drgondog]

Drgondog,
I have knowledge that some P-38 units were posted to 8th FC early in the 8th AF operational life in late 1942, but then were transferred to North Africa to the 12th AF as part of the Operation Torch buildup; I too know that later on a couple of P-38 FGs reappeared in 8th FC late in 1943, into 1944.

Were some of those FGs moved up from the MTO or any other theater of operations, or were they newly minted units arrived from the ZOI?

Newly 'minted' from the States. The H series was the primary model for the 55th and the 20th arrived with mostly J's and some F's.