Some Possible Help with Aerial Vcitories

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by GregP, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I’m working on a complete list of Luftwaffe aerial victory claims and I have a question about German units. So far I have 63,324 claims and have run across some 245 entries with what I would term a strange unit listing. Most are pretty straightforward, such as:

    Hptm Egmont Prinz zur Lippe-Weissenfeld Stab III. NJG 1 Lancaster Hägbluer Holz: 6800m

    The rank is Hptmn., and then the name. Staffel would be Stab III., and unit NJG 1. The victim was a Lancaster and the location is last.

    But, in a few cases, the entry looks like this:

    Gefr/Ogefr. Gerken/Siegel Aufkl. Ob.d.L. I-16 3km W. Wolokolansk: 5-20m

    The rank is Gefr or maybe Gefr. / Ogefr. The name is likely Gerken. The victim is an I-16 and the location follows the victim. But I’m not too sure how to interpret “/Siegel Aufkl. Ob.d.L.”. Somewhere in there is probably a Staffel and a Unit, or at least some grouping that makes sense.

    Another example is: Flak Blenheim Sea: off Ameland. Obviously the victim is a Blenheim that went down in the sea off Ameland, and the victor is “Flak”. But I’m looking for a Staffle / Unit assignment and all I see is “Flak.”

    Any ideas?

    The problem children amount to about 245 entries out of 63,000+ entries, so it sin't all that bad, relatively speaking. I just want to get it right. When I finish, if they ever allow us to post Excel files, I'll share the file with the forum.

    Thanks in advance!

    Regards, - Greg
     
  2. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    #2 bobbysocks, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    Gefr/Ogefr. Gerken/Siegel Aufkl. Ob.d.L. I-16 3km W. Wolokolansk: 5-20m...perhaps this was a twin seat ac like a bf 110. so the pilot was Gefr. Gerken and the co was Ogefr Siegel????

    update...did some digging Gefr...is like a lance corporal. Ogefr...senior lance corp.

    Aufkl. Ob.d.L ( from wiki for what it is worth ) looks like an abreveation for Aufklärungsgruppe Ob.d.L. and During winter 1940-41, the Aufkl.Gr Ob.d.L. consisted of 3 F. staffeln.

    Aufklärungsgruppe Ob.d.L - LuftwaffeDataWiki.

    so i am guessing it was the group...AND from what i see it was a recon group...so Ob...for observation? ??? thats from a quickie check...someone who knows more can confirm or correct me.
     
  3. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bobbysocks! Makes sense to me. For some reason or anotehr, I hadn;r even thought of Wiki ... duuhhh ....

    At least it isn't a side dish in a fancy restaurant that is named so nobody knows what they are ordering.
     
  4. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    the way german groups and squadrons, etc. were numbered and broken down is hard for me to figure out. i google everything and then take it with a grain of salt....lol
     
  5. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    The Luftwaffe, 1933-45 > Miscellaneous > Abbreviations

    Aufklärungsgeschwader = reconnaissance

    FLAK was part of the Luftwaffe.
     
  6. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Milosh, I appreciate that.
     
  7. Andrew Arthy

    Andrew Arthy Member

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    #7 Andrew Arthy, Jul 18, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
    Hi Greg,

    In your first example, Gefreiter Gerken and Oberbefreiter Siegel are two crewmen from a reconnaissance unit, the 1. Staffel of Aufklärungsgruppe Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe (reconnaissance group of the chief of the Luftwaffe). The Staffel was primarily equipped with Ju 88s, but had a handful of Do 215s and Bf 110s as well. In this case they were from a Ju 88 crew. Gefreiter Josef Gerken and Unteroffizier Paul Siegel, one a gunner and the other a radio operator, were killed in February 1942 with with 1./A.Gr. Ob.d.L., less than a month after their aerial victory.

    For your second example, it is a claim by a Flak unit, a German anti-aircraft unit (Flugabwehrkanone is German for anti-aircraft gun, and is abbreviated Flak). As Milosh said, German anti-aircraft units were part of the Luftwaffe.

    Hope that helps. Let me know if you have others.

    Cheers,
    Andrew A.
     
  8. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Andrw. I'll get back on it in time, but I just started a new job and have let it lay there for about a week and half. I'll get back to it.

    I have a pretty good file of kills from around the world by country. It's only missing 4 - 5 countries with very few pilots.

    This file I am working on is SUPPOSED to be a very thorough compilation of all German claims for the entire war, 1939 - 1945. The thing is, the file is a summary of the individual years files and they are presented in such a way that you can read them, but you can't copy or search them electronically for data. That makes them great to view but useless for getting any practucal information from them.

    I managed to get the data into Excel, but the lines are run-together text, and I'm trying to separate the various fields out automatically within Excel. With some 63,000+ records, a problem with some 240 records is nothing, but it takes some time. And ... we can't post Excel files in here anyway.

    Still, when I'm done, anyone who has this file will be able to search in any way he or she wants ... and I have been chasing that for 20+ years. Now if only I can find the primary data files for British, Russian, Japanese, and Italian WWII victories, it would be wonderful. Actually I HAVE the recods ... but am not sure they are in agreement with primary data sources.

    I HAVE the USAAF, US Navy/Marine Corps, and soon the German claims (not awarded kills). I don't think anyone in Germany after the war funded a study to get a diefinitive kills list ... the guys who might be interested in it were probably no longer in government service or maybe passed away, and nobody would fund the effort to produce an official list on theur own. I still want to compile this list and have it available. Maybe it's stupid, but I would not be adverse to sharing the file freely when it is completed. A person could probably make some omney off having it, but it is historical data and SHOULD have been freely available LONG ago to the public.

    I don't understand why these data files are not availble from any government data source, but finding the data has taken me a long time. So getting into a useful format isn't too much of an effort after finding the data.
     
  9. fcorsair

    fcorsair New Member

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    Would you mind posting the USN/USMC list you have, please? I've been putting together my own version from the primary mission reports but there are some big gaps - if you could fill some of them in that would really help me out. I'm happy to give you my work so far in return if that would be of value to you.
     
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