Sorens Really What If Thread

[Soren]

Soren, are you british?? it doesn't sound it, when was the last time we gave up hope??

Lanc this has nothing to do with hope, even Germany eventually gave up and Russia was bloody close to during the battle for Stalingrad.

in 1940 what did the luftwaffe have that could take out a capital ship?? the LW were no more prepared to take out ships than the RAF, we were both still using small bombs to try and penetrate the top armour, which wasn't gonna happen

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that during the invasion of Norway, the RN "destroyers" HMS Afridi, Bison, and Grom, as well as the anti-aircraft ship Bittern were all sunk by Stuka's carrying "Bombs". One bomb even passed completely through the Bittern's sister ship, the BLACK SWAN, and exploded under it, luckily for the Black swan who survived.

, you're right in saying that aircraft are the most effective weapons against ships, but only really when they're carrying torpedos,

Which is exactly what the LW would bring at the RN !

the RN would have loved the chance to bring their huge forces together for the sole purpose of destroying the ill prepared invasin force, the germans had no experience of amphibious landings and were coming over often in just civilian barges! they wouldn't have a chance, the germans caused problems releasing S-boats into the allied invasion force and they just had a couple of torp. tubes, imagine what battleships and cruisers would do, meanwhile the massed flak from all the ships the the german fear or hitting their own ships in the channel would make it very difficult for them to bomb, i realise there would be losses but they can be replaced as long as the island remains intact,

Lanc think before you burst out. The Germans weren't going to attack the RN while at the same time launching Op.Seelöwe, no they would annihilate the RN before even preparing for Op.seelöwe.

This is pure simple tactical exploitment, and the Germans wouldn't have missed the chance to use it !

[/quote="thelancasterkicksass"] if you think we'd have given up you know nothing about the British........ [/quote]

Without an airforce, against such a large opponent, any nation's army would 'eventually' give up Lanc.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

even Germany eventually gave up

that's odd, all sources i've read seem to think that germany fought right to the end, obviously you're history books seem to think they gave up whilst they still had allot of strength and the allies were several hundred miles from berlin........

and would you say the Japaneese would've surrendered if a conventional landing on their mainland was made?? no, the peasants were sharpening their bamboo spears waiting for the americans on the beaches, we'd be much the same i can assure you of that...........

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that during the invasion of Norway, the RN "destroyers" HMS Afridi, Bison, and Grom, as well as the anti-aircraft ship Bittern were all sunk by Stuka's carrying "Bombs".

but we're not just talking destroyers here, and some aircraft were lost too........

The Germans weren't going to attack the RN while at the same time launching Op.Seelöwe, no they would annihilate the RN before even preparing for Op.seelöwe

following the battle of britian there was a matter of weeks before the weather window that would allow any form of invasion closed, you are now suggesting that they could completely destroy the RN in those couple of weeks?? then launch a succesfull invasion of the British isles??

Without an airforce, against such a large opponent, any nation's army would 'eventually' give up

yes it's true the germans had a bigger army, what does that matter though when most of them would still be sitting in france when the invasion took place, the british wouldn't have to fight the entire german army, they only had to fight the few that made it off the barges oh yeah, those civilian barges the germans were coming over on, how many would the germans be able to land in a short space of time after only a couple of months planning?? the allies planned for years for D-day and landed 11,000 troops in a day, realistically, how many could the germans land? did they even have any plans for how they'd keep them supplied??

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Soren the Luftwaffe was not able to win the BoB and they would not have been able to fight the RN at the same time so it is all hopeless anyhow. Even if the Luftwaffe had one the BoB, they would not have overwelmed the RN. The RN was too large. There only hope would have been the U-Boots and there were not eneogh U-Boots at the time to undertake that adventure.

 

[Soren]

Lanc first of all, stop being so bloody disrespectful, it doesnt suit you well.

that's odd, all sources i've read seem to think that germany fought right to the end, obviously you're history books seem to think they gave up whilst they still had allot of strength and the allies were several hundred miles from berlin........

Yes thats right the Germans "Gave up", they officially "Surrendered" May 7. 1945.

and would you say the Japaneese would've surrendered if a conventional landing on their mainland was made??

Eventually, yes they would. And they showed us that eventually, if enough casualties were inflicted, even they would surrender. (Just like any other nation)

no, the peasants were sharpening their bamboo spears waiting for the americans on the beaches, we'd be much the same i can assure you of that...........

Until your casualties rise to a certain point you would, yes, but after that you'd accept the inevitable.

but we're not just talking destroyers here

Lanc the Stuka could easely bring down any of the RN's Battleships if thats what your pondering about, with 'one' bomb.

, and some aircraft were lost too........

"Too what" is my question then. RN Flak ? No, RAF fighters.

following the battle of britian there was a matter of weeks before the weather window that would allow any form of invasion closed, you are now suggesting that they could completely destroy the RN in those couple of weeks?? then launch a succesfull invasion of the British isles??

Without an airforce, in a week, the RN would've been annihilated.

yes it's true the germans had a bigger army, what does that matter though when most of them would still be sitting in france when the invasion took place, the british wouldn't have to fight the entire german army, they only had to fight the few that made it off the barges oh yeah, those civilian barges the germans were coming over on, how many would the germans be able to land in a short space of time after only a couple of months planning?? the allies planned for years for D-day and landed 11,000 troops in a day, realistically, how many could the germans land?
did they even have any plans for how they'd keep them supplied??

Lanc, with no RAF to pose a threat, the LW would bomb the British coastal defenses to smithereens (or atleast leave them permanently out of action), and the invading German troops on the beaches wouldnt meet a fraction of the resistance the Allies did on D-day. And with the coastal defenses down, supplies could come rolling in unhindered.

Fact is, once you have utter and complete air supremacy, planning-time drops dramaticly.

 

[Gnomey]

Agreed Lanc and Alder the Germans would not have been able to destroy the RN in the window of opportunity for landing in 1940. There was not enough time for them to do so. The small number of troops the Germans would have been able to land on the first day would not have been able to overwhelm the defences and the RN would have crippled any follow up forces. The Germans would have run out of steam and would have had to withdraw in my opinion. The Germans did not have enough resources avaliable to them in France in 1940 to launch a successful invasion of the UK with or without air superiority.

 

[Soren]

Adler and Gnomey, we're talking if the RAF was no'more.

But yes, as I've said before, its not worth even discussin it as the RAF was never beaten, and at the time it was close to, the LW was closer.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'm not even gonna bother continue this argument now you're taking this tone

Lanc first of all, stop being so bloody disrespectful, it doesnt suit you well

this was a healthy debate, i fail to see how i was being disrespectful and i do not apprechaite being spoken to like that at all........

 

[Soren]

"!obviously you're history books seem to think they gave up whilst they still had allot of strength and the allies were several hundred miles from berlin........ "

That is disrespectful talking Lanc.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

to me that's not disrespectful, i think other members will be on my side on this one, that was a fair enough comment given what you were saying............

 

[Soren]

to me that's not disrespectful, i think other members will be on my side on this one, that was a fair enough comment given what you were saying............

So your saying that in your History books the Germans didn't surrender ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Soren I know that you are talking about if the RAF had been defeated however look at this way. What landing craft did the Germans have. Nothing very good. The RN would not have even needed Battleships or Cruiser to take out the German landing fleet. It would have taken quite some time to build a suitable landing craft fleet.

 

[Gnomey]

to me that's not disrespectful, i think other members will be on my side on this one, that was a fair enough comment given what you were saying............

So your saying that in your History books the Germans didn't surrender ?

Of course the Germans surrendered we all know that but they only surrendered after they had lost everything the Western Front had collapsed and the Russians were in Berlin. Hitler and the other members of the Nazi high command had commited suicide. A weaker leadership came in to replace Hitler and they surrendered. Now they same in my opinion would of have to happen for the British to surrender in 1940, a change of leadership from one that did not want to surrender to one that did.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

So your saying that in your History books the Germans didn't surrender ?

no, they did but only after everything and almost everyone in germany had been destroyed and the allies were in berlin, in the same way not until the germans had reached john o'Groats would the british surrender, and we also had our empire to carry on the fight from.............

 

[Soren]

Soren I know that you are talking about if the RAF had been defeated however look at this way. What landing craft did the Germans have. Nothing very good. The RN would not have even needed Battleships or Cruiser to take out the German landing fleet. It would have taken quite some time to build a suitable landing craft fleet.

With complete air supremacy, amphibious landings are far from the only option Adler

Para invading forces proved successful at Crete and France, why not Britain ?

And without an airforce, how do you effectively stop an invading army from the air ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They did not have eneogh paratroopers to do an airborne invasion. I think you are missing the point that it was not possible.

 

[Soren]

no, they did but only after everything and almost everyone in germany had been destroyed and the allies were in berlin,

Actually ALOT of Germans surrendered, German mass surrendering already started April 26. And alot of German cities were still not occupied.

in the same way not until the germans had reached john o'Groats would the british surrender, and we also had our empire to carry on the fight from.............

But again lanc, without any RAF to pose a threat, the Germans would've reached London in a very short space of time, and eventually the British would've surrendered just the same as the Germans did themselves in 45.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Paras still need supply, Soren. They're not a very self-sufficient force for extended deep penetration missions. They're primarily there to seize objectives quickly and hold them long enough for the main forces to arrive. Do you honestly think the German ground forces were arriving anytime soon to relieve them? You keep writing off the Royal Navy for some reason. The German Luftwaffe would have been extremely hard tasked to defeat them for an invasion of any sort. Do you realize just how big and powerful the RN was? Then of course there was the almost complete unpreparedness of the Germans for any sort of channel crossing, as has already been gone over...and over...and over...

 

[Soren]

They did not have eneogh paratroopers to do an airborne invasion. I think you are missing the point that it was not possible.

Not a "pure" airborne invasion, no.

An airborn invasion force combined with an amphibious invasion force, would probably prove just as successful against Britain as they did on D-day.

And I bet Hitler would sacrefice alot of troops elsewhere, for an invasion of Britain if the RAF was beaten, as strategicly, Britain was VERY important.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Allright Soren though I respect your views on this, this is nothing more than a bunch of "What Ifs" and for the reason of getting back on topic here which is P-40 vs. Hurricane take this to the "What if" Threads.

 

[Soren]

Paras still need supply, Soren. They're not a very self-sufficient force for extended deep penetration missions. They're primarily there to seize objectives quickly and hold them long enough for the main forces to arrive. Do you honestly think the German ground forces were arriving anytime soon to relieve them?

What happened in France Nonskimmer ?

With no RAF, supplies could reach the para's reasonably unhindered, and supplies for the main force could come totally unhindered from the sea.

You keep writing off the Royal Navy for some reason. The German Luftwaffe would have been extremely hard tasked to defeat them for an invasion of any sort. Do you realize just how big and powerful the RN was?

Combined with naval strikes in the form of U-boats and Battleships, the LW could take out the RN in a short space of time, oh yes. The KriegsMarine and LW would have a field day.

Then of course there was the almost complete unpreparedness of the Germans for any sort of channel crossing, as has already been gone over...and over...and over.....

As I've said, I bet Hitler would sacrefice alot of troops elsewhere, for an invasion of Britain if the RAF was beaten.