Sorens Really What If Thread

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Soren, Oct 2, 2005.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Lanc this has nothing to do with hope, even Germany eventually gave up and Russia was bloody close to during the battle for Stalingrad.

    You seem to be oblivious to the fact that during the invasion of Norway, the RN "destroyers" HMS Afridi, Bison, and Grom, as well as the anti-aircraft ship Bittern were all sunk by Stuka's carrying "Bombs". One bomb even passed completely through the Bittern's sister ship, the BLACK SWAN, and exploded under it, luckily for the Black swan who survived.

    Which is exactly what the LW would bring at the RN !

    Lanc think before you burst out. The Germans weren't going to attack the RN while at the same time launching Op.Seelöwe, no they would annihilate the RN before even preparing for Op.seelöwe.

    This is pure simple tactical exploitment, and the Germans wouldn't have missed the chance to use it !

    [/quote="thelancasterkicksass"] if you think we'd have given up you know nothing about the British........ [/quote]

    Without an airforce, against such a large opponent, any nation's army would 'eventually' give up Lanc.
     
  2. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    that's odd, all sources i've read seem to think that germany fought right to the end, obviously you're history books seem to think they gave up whilst they still had allot of strength and the allies were several hundred miles from berlin........

    and would you say the Japaneese would've surrendered if a conventional landing on their mainland was made?? no, the peasants were sharpening their bamboo spears waiting for the americans on the beaches, we'd be much the same i can assure you of that...........

    but we're not just talking destroyers here, and some aircraft were lost too........

    following the battle of britian there was a matter of weeks before the weather window that would allow any form of invasion closed, you are now suggesting that they could completely destroy the RN in those couple of weeks?? then launch a succesfull invasion of the British isles??

    yes it's true the germans had a bigger army, what does that matter though when most of them would still be sitting in france when the invasion took place, the british wouldn't have to fight the entire german army, they only had to fight the few that made it off the barges oh yeah, those civilian barges the germans were coming over on, how many would the germans be able to land in a short space of time after only a couple of months planning?? the allies planned for years for D-day and landed 11,000 troops in a day, realistically, how many could the germans land? did they even have any plans for how they'd keep them supplied??
     
  3. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Soren the Luftwaffe was not able to win the BoB and they would not have been able to fight the RN at the same time so it is all hopeless anyhow. Even if the Luftwaffe had one the BoB, they would not have overwelmed the RN. The RN was too large. There only hope would have been the U-Boots and there were not eneogh U-Boots at the time to undertake that adventure.
     
  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Lanc first of all, stop being so bloody disrespectful, it doesnt suit you well.

    Yes thats right the Germans "Gave up", they officially "Surrendered" May 7. 1945.

    Eventually, yes they would. And they showed us that eventually, if enough casualties were inflicted, even they would surrender. (Just like any other nation)

    Until your casualties rise to a certain point you would, yes, but after that you'd accept the inevitable.

    Lanc the Stuka could easely bring down any of the RN's Battleships if thats what your pondering about, with 'one' bomb.

    "Too what" is my question then. RN Flak ? No, RAF fighters.


    Without an airforce, in a week, the RN would've been annihilated.

    Lanc, with no RAF to pose a threat, the LW would bomb the British coastal defenses to smithereens (or atleast leave them permanently out of action), and the invading German troops on the beaches wouldnt meet a fraction of the resistance the Allies did on D-day. And with the coastal defenses down, supplies could come rolling in unhindered.

    Fact is, once you have utter and complete air supremacy, planning-time drops dramaticly.
     
  5. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    Agreed Lanc and Alder the Germans would not have been able to destroy the RN in the window of opportunity for landing in 1940. There was not enough time for them to do so. The small number of troops the Germans would have been able to land on the first day would not have been able to overwhelm the defences and the RN would have crippled any follow up forces. The Germans would have run out of steam and would have had to withdraw in my opinion. The Germans did not have enough resources avaliable to them in France in 1940 to launch a successful invasion of the UK with or without air superiority.
     
  6. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Adler and Gnomey, we're talking if the RAF was no'more. ;)

    But yes, as I've said before, its not worth even discussin it as the RAF was never beaten, and at the time it was close to, the LW was closer.
     
  7. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    i'm not even gonna bother continue this argument now you're taking this tone

    this was a healthy debate, i fail to see how i was being disrespectful and i do not apprechaite being spoken to like that at all........
     
  8. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    "!obviously you're history books seem to think they gave up whilst they still had allot of strength and the allies were several hundred miles from berlin........ "

    That is disrespectful talking Lanc.
     
  9. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    to me that's not disrespectful, i think other members will be on my side on this one, that was a fair enough comment given what you were saying............
     
  10. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    So your saying that in your History books the Germans didn't surrender ? ;)
     
  11. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Soren I know that you are talking about if the RAF had been defeated however look at this way. What landing craft did the Germans have. Nothing very good. The RN would not have even needed Battleships or Cruiser to take out the German landing fleet. It would have taken quite some time to build a suitable landing craft fleet.
     
  12. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    Of course the Germans surrendered we all know that but they only surrendered after they had lost everything the Western Front had collapsed and the Russians were in Berlin. Hitler and the other members of the Nazi high command had commited suicide. A weaker leadership came in to replace Hitler and they surrendered. Now they same in my opinion would of have to happen for the British to surrender in 1940, a change of leadership from one that did not want to surrender to one that did.
     
  13. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    no, they did but only after everything and almost everyone in germany had been destroyed and the allies were in berlin, in the same way not until the germans had reached john o'Groats would the british surrender, and we also had our empire to carry on the fight from.............
     
  14. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    With complete air supremacy, amphibious landings are far from the only option Adler ;)

    Para invading forces proved successful at Crete and France, why not Britain ?

    And without an airforce, how do you effectively stop an invading army from the air ? ;)
     
  15. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    They did not have eneogh paratroopers to do an airborne invasion. I think you are missing the point that it was not possible.
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Actually ALOT of Germans surrendered, German mass surrendering already started April 26. And alot of German cities were still not occupied.

    But again lanc, without any RAF to pose a threat, the Germans would've reached London in a very short space of time, and eventually the British would've surrendered just the same as the Germans did themselves in 45.
     
  17. Nonskimmer

    Nonskimmer Active Member

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    Paras still need supply, Soren. They're not a very self-sufficient force for extended deep penetration missions. They're primarily there to seize objectives quickly and hold them long enough for the main forces to arrive. Do you honestly think the German ground forces were arriving anytime soon to relieve them? You keep writing off the Royal Navy for some reason. The German Luftwaffe would have been extremely hard tasked to defeat them for an invasion of any sort. Do you realize just how big and powerful the RN was? Then of course there was the almost complete unpreparedness of the Germans for any sort of channel crossing, as has already been gone over...and over...and over...
     
  18. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Not a "pure" airborne invasion, no.

    An airborn invasion force combined with an amphibious invasion force, would probably prove just as successful against Britain as they did on D-day.

    And I bet Hitler would sacrefice alot of troops elsewhere, for an invasion of Britain if the RAF was beaten, as strategicly, Britain was VERY important.
     
  19. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Allright Soren though I respect your views on this, this is nothing more than a bunch of "What Ifs" and for the reason of getting back on topic here which is P-40 vs. Hurricane take this to the "What if" Threads.
     
  20. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    What happened in France Nonskimmer ?

    With no RAF, supplies could reach the para's reasonably unhindered, and supplies for the main force could come totally unhindered from the sea.

    Combined with naval strikes in the form of U-boats and Battleships, the LW could take out the RN in a short space of time, oh yes. The KriegsMarine and LW would have a field day.

    As I've said, I bet Hitler would sacrefice alot of troops elsewhere, for an invasion of Britain if the RAF was beaten.
     
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