Sorens Really What If Thread

[Soren]

Allright Soren though I respect your views on this, this is nothing more than a bunch of "What Ifs" and for the reason of getting back on topic here which is P-40 vs. Hurricane take this to the "What if" Threads.

Exactly, your right.

Back to the topic.

 

[Lunatic]

and would you say the Japaneese would've surrendered if a conventional landing on their mainland was made??

Eventually, yes they would. And they showed us that eventually, if enough casualties were inflicted, even they would surrender. (Just like any other nation)

no, the peasants were sharpening their bamboo spears waiting for the americans on the beaches, we'd be much the same i can assure you of that...........

Until your casualties rise to a certain point you would, yes, but after that you'd accept the inevitable.

I respectfully disagree. The Japanese people were willing to sustain tremendous losses in defense of the Emperor. The Japanese military commanders still believed that if they could inflict sufficiently high losses on the Allies the Allies would accept a negotiated surender and they were willing to endure many times that level of losses to achieve this.

Had the USA forgone the use of non-conventilonal weapons (the A-Bomb and nerve gas) Allied losses would have run to the mid 6 figure mark, perhaps even as high as a million. And Japanese losses would have been 10 fold as high. And the Soviets would have ended up in complete control of China and at least two and probably three of the Northern Japanese Islands (they hold one today), if not the entire contry. And the Soviet's would have had no respect for Japanese culteral identity or tradition.

Having the A-Bomb dropped on Japan was the best thing that could have happened to them short of a miracle of enlightenment in the Japanese milititary leadership. It saved millions of Japanese lives and allowed them to retain the largest part of their cultural identity. Had they endured a an invasion, even without the Soviets being involved, their culture would have been almost completely lost.

Without an airforce, in a week, the RN would've been annihilated.

How? They'd have hung back until the critical moment when Hitler made his move and wiped out his invasion force. Hitler didn't have the resources to build a Luftwaffe' large enought to stop that (especially at night).

Sea-Lion was a fantasy cooked up in a cocain/amphetamine/morphine daze. The German's had no capacity for such an operation and had they tried it the war would have ended much earlier.

Read this essay: http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Convinced?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Gnomey]

Nice link Lunatic. I agree with the conclusions made.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Again Please read a couple of posts back. While these are all great posts and what not lets get back on topic. There is a What If thread for this purpose.

 

[Lunatic]

Adler and Gnomey, we're talking if the RAF was no'more.

But yes, as I've said before, its not worth even discussin it as the RAF was never beaten, and at the time it was close to, the LW was closer.

Well, that's pretty silly isn't it Soren? I mean, lets assume the Luftwaffe' had destroyed the RAF. To do so would have certainly have weakened them substantially. And even at their level of force at the point hitler abanon attacking the RAF in favor of bombing cities they didn't have the kind of forces required to stop the RN, especially at night, from destroying any significant invasion force the Germans might have fielded.

Besides, had the RAF been loosing to the degree you suggest they'd have been pulled back out of reach of the Luftwaffe' until such an invasion was begun. Then, when the Germans were over-extended they'd have been re-deployed.

Anyway read the essay I posted in my previous response. I think you will see that Sea-Lion was utter rubbish and simply could not have worked. Floating 10's of thousands of men across the channel on river barges? Even if the British did NOTHING to defend themselves losses would probably have exceeded 50%!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Nonskimmer]

What exactly did happen in France though Soren? I have no idea what you were referring to.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I give up. Whats the point in trying to get a thread back on topic when no one listens anyhow?

 

[Gnomey]

Can you not split the thread where it went off-topic because the way this is going it is unlikely to get back on topic for a bit...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes I will do that.

 

[Lunatic]

Soren I know that you are talking about if the RAF had been defeated however look at this way. What landing craft did the Germans have. Nothing very good. The RN would not have even needed Battleships or Cruiser to take out the German landing fleet. It would have taken quite some time to build a suitable landing craft fleet.

With complete air supremacy, amphibious landings are far from the only option Adler

Para invading forces proved successful at Crete and France, why not Britain ?

And without an airforce, how do you effectively stop an invading army from the air ?

Oh come on be serious Soren. A para attack without a naval invasion would result in lots of German POW's. Paras are not an objective capturing force, they are a disruptive force. Without a naval invasion the paras would have run out of supplies in less than a day and been doomed. The first night that fell the British tanks and armored cars would have cut them to ribbons.

Unless you are suggesting that Hitler had some means of dropping 20 or 30 thousand well supplied troops into England this is an absurd proposition.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Gnomey]

That's better.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There we go now this can carry on however you wish!

 

[Soren]

I respectfully disagree. The Japanese people were willing to sustain tremendous losses in defense of the Emperor. The Japanese military commanders still believed that if they could inflict sufficiently high losses on the Allies the Allies would accept a negotiated surender and they were willing to endure many times that level of losses to achieve this.

Had the USA forgone the use of non-conventilonal weapons (the A-Bomb and nerve gas) Allied losses would have run to the mid 6 figure mark, perhaps even as high as a million. And Japanese losses would have been 10 fold as high. And the Soviets would have ended up in complete control of China and at least two and probably three of the Northern Japanese Islands (they hold one today), if not the entire contry. And the Soviet's would have had no respect for Japanese culteral identity or tradition.

Sure losses would've been high, but the USA wouldn't have signed any form of Peace treaty with the Japanees, no they would've only accepted a Japanees surrender.

And eventaully, against the might of the USA, the Japs would've surrendered.

Having the A-Bomb dropped on Japan was the best thing that could have happened to them short of a miracle of enlightenment in the Japanese milititary leadership. It saved millions of Japanese lives and allowed them to retain the largest part of their cultural identity. Had they endured a an invasion, even without the Soviets being involved, their culture would have been almost completely lost.

I agree 100%.

How? They'd have hung back until the critical moment when Hitler made his move and wiped out his invasion force.

Hung back ? Lunatic, the RN would be sunk before even having the chance to escape.

Hitler didn't have the resources to build a Luftwaffe' large enought to stop that (especially at night).

Without any RAF, oh yes he had.

Sea-Lion was a fantasy cooked up in a cocain/amphetamine/morphine daze. The German's had no capacity for such an operation and had they tried it the war would have ended much earlier.

Read this essay: http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Convinced?

=S=

Lunatic

Remember Lunatic, we're talking no'more RAF here.

And as your link suggests, the RAF would have had a huge part in defeating any invasion force.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And how would the RN been sunk without a chance. Sorry Soren but the RN is more powerful than you think it is. How the hell do you think it survived anyhow? By sitting in the harbor hiding.

 

[Soren]

Soren I know that you are talking about if the RAF had been defeated however look at this way. What landing craft did the Germans have. Nothing very good. The RN would not have even needed Battleships or Cruiser to take out the German landing fleet. It would have taken quite some time to build a suitable landing craft fleet.

With complete air supremacy, amphibious landings are far from the only option Adler

Para invading forces proved successful at Crete and France, why not Britain ?

And without an airforce, how do you effectively stop an invading army from the air ?

Oh come on be serious Soren. A para attack without a naval invasion would result in lots of German POW's. Paras are not an objective capturing force, they are a disruptive force. Without a naval invasion the paras would have run out of supplies in less than a day and been doomed. The first night that fell the British tanks and armored cars would have cut them to ribbons.

Unless you are suggesting that Hitler had some means of dropping 20 or 30 thousand well supplied troops into England this is an absurd proposition.

=S=

Lunatic

Please read my previus posts properly, I never proposed a "Pure" airborne invasion.

 

[Gnomey]

The RN was the most powerful fleet afloat in 1940 and it would have been impossible for the LW to destroy every single ship the RN possessed at the time and significant damage would have been done to the invasion fleet.

 

[Soren]

And how would the RN been sunk without a chance. Sorry Soren but the RN is more powerful than you think it is. How the hell do you think it survived anyhow? By sitting in the harbor hiding.

Here's how it is..

Without any RAF, the RN wasnt mighty, it was just big. And any attempt to escape by the RN, would be abruptly halted by axis aircraft.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree. There was no way to destroy eneogh of the RN to allow the Invasion fleet to get through and then eventually the paratroopers that Soren has thrown into the mix would have been overrun and not been able to be supplied which brings to my next point that the Germans would not have been able to sustain an invasion force for very long. The forces would have lacked supplies and would have soon fell apart due to attrition.

 

[Gnomey]

And how would the RN been sunk without a chance. Sorry Soren but the RN is more powerful than you think it is. How the hell do you think it survived anyhow? By sitting in the harbor hiding.

Here's how it is..

Without any RAF, the RN wasnt mighty, it was just big. And any attempted to escape by the RN, would be abruptly halted by axis aircraft.

I have to disagree Soren while the LW could have interferred and harrased it could never have stopped the RN getting away.

 

[Soren]

The RN was the most powerful fleet afloat in 1940 and it would have been impossible for the LW to destroy every single ship the RN possessed at the time and significant damage would have been done to the invasion fleet.

How is the RN going to protect itself against airial attacks with no RAF to back them up ? They were sitting ducks..